Tuesday, April 04, 2006

The Good Old Days

What really amazes me is that Reid is actually arguing to change the rules because they are too restrictive. It is as if they respected them in the first place, and where abiding by them. I think he is yearning for the good old days.

225 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

does this look like the good old days

Nine U.S. Troops Killed in Iraq; Three Missing

2:16 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You changed the look and feel !
good for u
Get ready for Samuel
-F

3:02 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Povvy,
You still out there?
-

3:11 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

Yup, still here ;)

Good to see out blog master is back, hopefully we'll see some spirited discussions with a wider audience in future.

To kick it off: -

Did you see? There are rumours that operational planning for a strike on Iran are already underway. Apparently nuclear strikes have not been ruled out.

Nice to see we have learned from history eh? (errr.. NOT, but then Bush & co are hardly astute at history or errr... anything except BS really)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=P30&blog=america&xml=/news/2006/04/10/blamerica10.xml

Before we trot out the standard schmeer against Mr. Hersh, let us remember that his last 'fantasy scoop' was Abu Ghraib.

1:15 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I trust that our military should have plans for an attack on China and Russia too. I would fault them if they didn't. The question is is if Bush & Co. are seriously thinking of implementing those plans.
Time will tell.
-

12:21 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Nice try at dodging... but I think you know that it has gone beyond that.

Here is proof why they (his handlers) tried for so long to script Bushes interactions with the public....
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Bush-on-private-security-Rummy04-10-06.wmv

Sean, you've picked a winner ;)

9:56 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

but I think you know that it has gone beyond that.

Considering that Bush has let Europe take the lead on trying to negotiate with Iran, I don't see how you can assume that Bush is in a rush to attack Iran.

Oh yes, the handlers want a polished look all the time - isn't that one of the things we're sick of, the phony canned answers of our politicians. If you really paid attention to his answer, it was that he delegates - which is what a president should do.
-

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4:55 pm  
Blogger joe said...

Just for the record, WMD have been found in Iraq.

joe

3:24 pm  
Blogger joe said...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/22/060622055545.07o4imol.html

here is the link

joe

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8:04 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joe,

Haven’t heard from you for ages! Thought you had signed up ;)

You have to wonder, why, with such good news of WMD being found, chimpy and his posse haven’t been shouting it from the rooftops, surely Faux News and the rest would have given the story some airtime?
Maybe they haven’t because: -
“A Pentagon official who confirmed the findings said that all the weapons were pre-1991 vintage munitions "in such a degraded state they couldn't be used for what they are designed for."”

On the other hand, here’s some good news from Iraq….
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2268585_1,00.html

(I hear the whining…. ‘but it’s not OUR fault there’s a civil war in Iraq!’)

Have a nice day!

Povvy

11:35 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Is anybody out there?

4:11 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Reminds me of that song by Pink Floyd ;)

Yup.

11:07 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

At one time Floyd used to be about the only thing I listened to.

Looks like the Cedar Revolution has had the pile of incendiary devices around it's base ignited. Looks like Assad is looking forward to a phone call from the White House asking for his aid to reign in Hezbollah.
-

3:02 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Could be, but I think the WH wants to give Israel a few more days of unrestrained military action. I expect hostilities to die down once Condi gets there next week. (a pity there are no earlier flights ;P )

Unfortunately, I fear Israel’s actions only strengthen Hezbollahs hand in the long run by radicalizing a new generation, thus perpetuating the cycle for another 20 years. You have to wonder if there isn’t a way that relies more on seduction than reduction to rubble.

Its like the ‘War on Terror’, are you in fact diminishing the number of ‘terrorists’ or just increasing them through the clumsy use of force? Perhaps showing people that there is a better way to live is a more powerful weapon than anything else.

12:28 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

You have to wonder if there isn’t a way that relies more on seduction

Isn't 'seduction' outlawed by Islam? I think someone is liable to lop your head off if you try that tact.

Maybe if you advocate the destruction of Israel and all Zionists you will get Hezbollah to listen to you.

I think that one of the things that is being planned is financing for the rebuilding of Lebanon after the hostilities cease.

The one thing that is not being considered is leaving Hezbollah in place to where it can resume the same tactics at a future date.
-

6:05 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

“Isn't 'seduction' outlawed by Islam?”

Hahahaha… and all that.

“Maybe if you advocate the destruction of Israel and all Zionists you will get Hezbollah to listen to you.”
And perhaps if Israel relied more on seduction (maybe a better term would be ‘soft power’) than force, nobody would listen to Hezbollah. Tell me, do you think killing the Lebanese, destroying their infrastructure, and displacing hundreds of thousands of them will make them more or less sympathetic to Israels cause? Or would it make them more or less sympathetic to Hezbollahs cause? (BTW, didn’t the US claim credit for the ‘Cedar Revolution’? Et tu, Brutus?) I would think that, after Iraq, the lesson would be that killing and mistreating a largely neutral population will eventually turn them into supporters of your enemies and eventually your enemies.
If you want to get rid of Hezbollah, find another way to do it.
How? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power

“I think that one of the things that is being planned is financing for the rebuilding of Lebanon after the hostilities cease.”
ROTFLMAO! I’ll believe that pig when I see it flying.

The best Israel can hope to do is weaken Hezbollah militarily, they will never wipe out the idea behind Hezbollah that causes its existence, and therefore they will never wipe out Hezbollah. As a Lebanese refugee said here in a TV interview a few days ago, the window for opportunity for Israel is very small, sympathies will soon turn against them.

1:48 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

'Soft Power'... nice one Pov. Have you considered that Hezbollah just won't respond to this.

The Israel-Hezbollah duel showed no signs of letup Wednesday as more Katyusha rockets fell in northern Israel and southern Lebanon.

Here we are ten years later and Hezbollah is pulling the same stuff.
Israeli-Lebanese Ceasefire Understanding
So much for ceasefire agreements.
-

3:07 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Have you considered that it's possible to actually starve the oxygen that feeds an ideology by presenting more alternative optiond that are more attractive to people? As with Iraq, as yet un-radicalised people are being radicalised by the overwhelming use of indiscrimate force against a civilian population.
In their position I would take up arms too and so would most people.

It's a very simple concept to understand, but it's funny how the chickenhawks just don't get it. They don't get that soft power is one of the main reasons America was once great.
They don’t get that they are one of the main reasons that America’s star now appears to be waning.

2:09 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

BTW. Hezbollah has stated that they wanted to do a prisoner exchange for the kidnapped soldiers from the start, an option Israel has taken many times in the past. Funny how on this occasion, the kidnapped soldiers became a convenient excuse to escalate hostilities.

Is the Israeli leaderships move of using disproportionate force a deliberate move to destabilize the region and inflame sentiments against them? Or are they just plain stupid?

2:21 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Ain't that the buzz word of the moment... diproportionate. Do you think that if it was within the power of Syria, Iran or Hizbollah to use diproportionate force against Israel that they would wait one second? And as for destabilizing the region, Hizbollah has been building a missile stockpile for years - tell me that they intend to use those for peaceful purposes. Hizbollah has been aquiring them with the intent of using them against Israel and they have been aquiring the intelligence to target them against Israel's military and industrial assets. It would be stupid for Israel to not go after Hizbollah's stockpiles and displace Hizbollah from it's strategic positions in Lebanon.

5:39 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

I see the point is eluding you completely. If Hezbollah are the enemy, fine, fight them. Who is arguing against that?
But don’t destroy Lebanon and kills hundreds of civilians a large percentage of whom are children. This war appears to be against the Lebanese public as much as Hezbollah. Why else target fleeing refugees and needlessly wipeout civilian infrastructure?
But, we’ve had this debate before re. Iraq. Your conscience is clear when it comes to massive civilian deaths. It doesn’t bother you. You find it entirely justified and acceptable. I get that.
And that’s what separates us. I don’t’ see those dying as less human than myself, less deserving of life.
When people are still blowing up American and Israeli citizens in 10, 20, 30 years time, I’m sure you’ll fail to ask why.

12:09 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

needlessly wipeout civilian infrastructure?

Hezbollah and Hamas both put themselves in the middle of civilian populations in order to use the civilians as a shield or make a humanitarian outcry of civilian deaths when they are attacked.

It doesn’t bother you.

Wrong.

You find it entirely justified and acceptable.

Negotiations have been going on for years as have the attacks. Negotiations have not come up with a solution to the problem because there are those that refuse to accept that Israel has any right to exist. I am all for a negotiated settlement. But when one is not possible what other options are available? You on the other hand seem to think an untenable situation should be maintained in perpetuity. You seem to believe that if something is negotiated long enough that eventually everyone will come to a compromise.

As I have stated before, you confuse my pragmatic view (the one that humankind has not progressed to the point where war is no longer a necessary evil) with a whole hearted acceptance of war. I believe that war is a vast waste of people's lives and resources, lives and resources that could be better put to solving the world's problems. But given the short-sighted and ignorant thinking of most of the people of this world, violence is the way that some will seek to impose their will on others. While it is not my desire to impose my will on others, I will not accept them trying to impose their will upon me. As long as there are those willing to use force, I will vote to have a superior force.
-

3:38 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

Thanks for clearing that up ;)

Firstly, your statement ‘(the one that humankind has not progressed to the point where war is no longer a necessary evil)’ can be answered thusly; because there is no will to make it obsolete. There are still those, on both sides, who have not learned how counterproductive force of any kind is. E.g. How’s that superior force in Iraq working out for you then?

I see, that at least in principle, poodle Tony Blair also grasps the fact that prolonged bombardment of Lebanese civilians will result in more of the ME turning against the west and more towards organizations like Hezbollah. No shit Sherlock!?

This attitude of, ‘but it’s not our fault Lebanese civilians civilians are being killed, it’s because Hezbollah are using them as shields’ is as fatuous as it is stupid. It reminds of the classic childish ‘reasoning’ the schoolyard bully uses when he breaks someone’s nose, ‘but it’s his fault because he moved, I was only going to punch him on the chin’. The only people such an ‘argument’ convinces are the bully himself and others like him.

It’s simple really;
1. The Lebanese civilians are NOT the enemy. But, like Iraqi civilians, they have become the enemy
2. While people are talking and negotiating, even if it is for one thousand years, people are not dying

10:11 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

because there is no will to make it obsolete. There are still those, on both sides, who have not learned how counterproductive force of any kind is.

It takes a little more than will, it takes intelligence. The 'will' is mainly necessary for people not to let their emotions rule their decision making - something that does not occur too often.

How’s that superior force in Iraq working out for you then?

As well as can be expected given the mission parameters. If the mission parameters were nearly total annihilation of a city I feel quite confident that that could be carried out rather well. Being a police force is another matter as has been proven a number of times before.

Love your little rant about the 'shield' issue - your analogy is piss poor. A better analogy would be a police officer taking a risk to kill a bank robber that is holding a gun to a hostage's head. The fact is is that Hezbollah and those that support them are hypocrites. Hezbollah justifies their attacks on Israeli citizens by saying they are complicit with the Israeli government's actions and that they do not have the capability to confront the technological superiority of the Israeli military. So in their mind it is fair game if Israeli citizens get killed but not if Arab citizens get killed. And many of the Shite people in southern Lebanon have this same rational.

And no, Lebanese civilians are not the enemy, they are just the unfortunate people caught in the middle of a war - this is what has happened in all wars, nothing new about it. Also, it is quite common for negotiations to occur while people are still dying. I don't know where you get this idea that negotiations automatically bring a halt to hostile actions.
-

2:15 am  
Blogger Myst said...

GADS!!! O is back!!!

*Happy Dance ensues*

O...where HAVE you been? (sounds like Mrs. Weasley, doesn't it?) Are you doing well?

Please email to let me know what made you disappear like that.

Hi povvy...good to "see" you, too!

Respect is not a right, it's a privelege...

6:48 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Myst,
You can stop the happy dance. It's been a few months since O's post.

1:29 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Sean...

Do you relish the thought of always telling someone else what they can or can not do...you can get over yourself.

I have not been here in a while, either.

I specifically stated that I was happy O had come back after almost a year and I said "hello" to povvy as well...I do not recall making a comment toward you.

If you wanted to acknowledge me/my post, there are many ways to do so without attempting to dominate my actions.

Today I witnessed 4 children, the oldest being 5, running up and down the street without an adult in sight. They ended up getting in a four door sedan and throwing it out of gear. I watched this in horror thinking that one or more of them could get killed out of neglect and when I reported it to the local law enforcement, nothing was done.

That being stated, I am not in a mood for other people's chutzpah.

If you were attempting humor or your own brand of "welcome", you might need to work on it.

Respect is not a right, it's a privelege.

4:19 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

As ornery as ever I see. My comment wasn't meant to be domineering in the least - it was just meant to convey the fact that I do not think you will get a response from O any time soon as he has not responded since March. I know you like O, I just wanted to let you know you shouldn't get your expectations up.
-

9:50 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Yup, what happened to O? Got bored with our prattling or something worse?

It strikes me that our debates, framed as they are in our western mindsets and frames of reference, may be perceived as, at best ivory-towerish, and at worst, completely tangential to the real world concerns of those actually wrapped up in the daily events of which we speak.

Let’s hope the ceasefire holds. Neither side has accomplished much except ruin countless innocent peoples lives and polarize opinion, never a good thing in my books, as it provably leads to fundamentalism of the worst kind on both sides.

11:32 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Yes Pov, not to mention how we lose interest once something is out of the spotlight. Has Darfur gotten any better?
-

12:40 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Myst

Glad to see you are well!

I've been watching the Connecticut race with some interest and wonder if Lamonts victory will galvanize the dems into unifying their message and giving the repugs the hard fight that is now needed if the US and the world is to be saved from the train wreck that is the Bush admin.

Good news about the cease fire, but it’s gotta hurt that Iraq (along with Iran and Syria) has pledged millions for reconstruction to those who had their lives destroyed by Israel’s bombing campaign. It seems massive and indiscriminate bombing campaigns are the tactic de jour for those without the required intelligence or a cogent plan for military success. Watching the news here it seems that, as I predicted (not that is was hard ;) ), Hizbollah is now more popular than before the war. I’m sure they will be enjoying a surge in new recruits over the next few months, especially from those who’ve had their homes destroyed and have nothing to go back to and have acquired a newly developed sense of hatred for those that ruined their lives. I know, nothing I’m saying is new, it’s all obvious common sense, … you would think.

I wonder when, if ever, Faux News will report the Macaca story?

10:08 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Hmmmmm..... what a surprise!

"Federal judge rules Bush domestic spy program is unconstitutional, orders it stopped "
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/08/17/nsa.lawsuit.pdf

She went on to say that "the president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders."

I thought it was the terrorists who hated your freedoms>

9:27 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

No suprise, just our adversarial system at work.

4:45 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Thanks god!

10:37 am  
Blogger Myst said...

And Bush is appealing that ruling against his wiretaps...with confidence that he will get his way. Arrogant bast**d needs to wake up and smell the homeless. His does NOT have absolute power as he thinks he has and 2006 is going to be a bit of a turning point.

The Republican party has chosen to abandon their own candidate in CT in order to back Lieberman...that says a great deal in a nutshell. What THE PEOPLE wish and vote for has no relevence compared to the fear mongering idiots in charge. These are individuals who have no qualms about subverting our entire nation for their personal agendas and they will do all they can to remain in control...whether it is fear mongering or actual destruction.

I have been through hell and back throughout my life and I have no intent of allowing these SOBs to terrorize me. I would rather die standing than live on my knees at their discretion. The US has forgotten that it was strong before the arrival of the Neocons. I hope that soon the masses realize that they are still strong without those who have taken our country down the path of destruction.

Israel has violated the treaty several times already. This last violation was called a RAID, even by Israeli publications but of course Israel is calling it self defense. The word raid negates the excuse of self defense. Even before the cease fire took place, Israeli publications were expounding that it would not be long before Israel was back in Lebanon to finish what they started. They will not abide by the ceasefire. They had no plans to abide by it. Why should Hezbollah disarm in front of naked Israeli aggression and the US to back them up? The Neocon blueprint for the "New ME" is not going at all like it was planned and FINALLY the world has begun to see Israel's over zealous behavior. You are correct, povvy, Hezbollah is more appreciated today than it was before Israel's latest pre meditated war.

sean, I apologize for what appears as an innocent remark. I have no excuse. Seeing those kids being neglected put me in a very aggitated state and I had to fight the impulse to get into a physical confrontation with the adult who was responsible. I can not abide by the neglect or abuse of any child and tend to get inflamed when I see it. Please accept my apology.

Eventuall, perhaps O will drop me a line and let me know where he disappeared to.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

6:32 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Why should Hezbollah disarm in front of naked Israeli aggression

As if Hezollah had any intention of disarming.

Face it, it is an intractable situatation given that there are those who want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth and Israel is willing to fight them at the drop of a hat.

3:17 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Hezbollah only exists because of Israel's aggression in the first place.

Check your...sorry...actual history. Hezbollah AND Hamas only came into existence because "God's chosen people" became aggressive in their efforts to reclaim, as some Israelis have put it, land that belonged to the Jew's in the first place. I have read too many comments stating this exact perception lately on Israeli news websites not to think it has some validity.

Why should Hezbollah disarm if Israel has no intention of abiding by a cease fire? Before the cease fire even took effect, Haraatz and the Jerusalem Post were already posting that they would be back in Lebanon soon to finish what they started. Israel had no intention of abiding by the cease fire. I have found articles in Israeli publications that brazenly admit that Israel is PROVOKING Hezbollah. Lebanon and the Palestinian territories will never be safe or fee of Israel because Israel believes that they are entitled to those lands...I have read it in their own publications. Israel has violated the cease fire at least twice of sufficient magnatude and who knows how many smaller infractions that have not been reported. The UN has declared that ISRAEL has violated the cease fire but I have not heard them state that HEZBOLLAH has.

Hezbollah is actually trying to help rebuild Southern Lebanon since Israel deemed it necessry to demolish the last 15 years worth of progress Lebanon has made to restructure after the last Israeli attack.

You would not stand and fight someone trying to occupy your country? That is what Hezbollah was borne out of. Israel calls and tells people in other countries that they should leave their homes because they will be bombed...then maybe they do and maybe they do not, if they haven't bombed all the roads to leave by. Do you not call that terorism...psychological warfare? Against civilians?

When Israel crosses a border and takes a citizen from Gaza or Lebanon they call it "detaining" but it is no different than what they label as "kidnapping" by Hezbollah and Hamas.

Do not be attempting the White power double standards here because you will get called to the carpet on it.

Israel carries out raids across borders, kidnaps, assasinates and all those other things it accuses others of.

The only difference is symantics.

Respect is not a right, it's a privelege.

4:28 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I have done some reading on the history of Israel and the Palestinian situation. I do realize that the Israelis are not wholly innocent. In fact, Israel owes its existance in part to groups that were considered by British authorities to be terrorist organizations.

You would not stand and fight someone trying to occupy your country?

That is precisely the problem, both sides consider it to be their land and both sides are willing to fight for it.

I consider it only natural that violence is going to happen when either one or both sides refuse to negotiate. People have to learn to respect others not like themselves - it is a basic nature to distrust/fear what you do not know.

2:54 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Smackdown! At last, some adversarial journalism.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/PaulHackettHardball.wmv

Talking about Israel, if they've broken UN resolution 1701, shouldn't we, as self-appointed enforcers of UN resulutions, be invading them?

"The purposes of the United States should not be doubted. The Security Council resolutions will be enforced. The just demands of peace and security will be met -- or action will be unavoidable, and a regime that has lost its legitimacy will also lose its power,"
Bush Sep 2002

9:51 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

This may explain Bushes apparently defective brain....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4Bhmm22xo

2:13 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Israel may deem their neighbors as occupying their land BUT they have only existed since the late 1940s on land that the Brits TOOK from the Palestinians.

By all rights, Israel has no claim...their neighbors have been there forever and they have been there a very short time. Also the International communtiy has reprimanded Israel before but Israel has always been allowed to get away with the bs...even when told to abide by the borders set in the late 1960s.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:48 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

By all rights, Israel has no claim...their neighbors have been there forever and they have been there a very short time.

Human history has been all about the struggle to attain and keep land and resources - you're telling me that this should all change now? How about the manner in which Jewish people have had their property taken away from them throughout the rest of the middle east?
Also, you're forgetting that lands used to be sparsely populated - if at all. Population growth has had a large effect on the need for land.
Additionally, Jewish people purchased a fair amount of the land from landowners. A lot of the problem started because the custom was (is?) that the Palestinian peasant farmers owned the olive trees on the land that the Jewish people purchased. The Palestinian farmers became upset when they were evicted from the land (that they did not own) because they were loosing their orchards (which they considered they did own).

8:55 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

that the Brits TOOK from the Palestinians.

Povvy, care to field this one?

2:59 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Apologies for the delay. I have to say, the UK had no right to be giving away Palestinian land to anyone, just as we had no right to ransack entire populations for our own material gain. Part of our dubious colonial past. And not something a lot of modern Britons are proud of. I fear that the after-shocks of such actions seem to last decades, if not centuries after such actions are perpetrated.

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11:36 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Povvy, Povvy, Povvy...
Why don't you go read a little history. The way you put it one would think the Ottoman empire should have been left in control. While it's true the British were not entirely alturistic, they did improve a number of things in that part of the world.

2:44 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Is it not typical that sean would ask specifically for povvy's input and then dismiss it entirely without batting an eye. I guess we must still consider the source...one should not ask if one does not want to know the truth.

It IS history that when Britain claimed lordship over the Middle East they took land that rightfully belonged to the Arab people in order to "plant" Israel. The land was originally inhabited by the Palestinians mixed with others native to the area.

Just like the white immigrants came to America and took land from the Natives and Mexicans under threat of ascimilation or death to suit their own purpose, the Brits took land they had no right to and gave it away.

Many of our history books have had to be revised over the years because of inaccuracies and falsehoods, some deliberate and some not. It is well documented that the "colonization" of the ME was not working out as planned and that, just as we (the U.S.), try to dictate who can or can not lead other nations, the Brits wanted to place their own "footprint" on the ME...hence Israel...an ally unto the oil producing bonanza of the planet. It was several years after that the British government turned over their self inflicted welfare case to America, which remains to this day the biggest welfare case the U.S. has. We are now paying our tax dollars to help repair the damage Israel did to Lebanon with the BOMBS we either sold or gave to them...like the bomb that killed the 30 + children in Qana and caused the oil spill (environmental disaster) in the Mediteranian...the list is miles long.

When Israel began the heavy handed behavior against their neighbors the U.S. saw them as possibly a forceful allie of the greatest oil region on the planet instead of just a welfare case.

Before you begin an attempt to tear this apart, be it known that the welfare case to possible forceful allie statement is one that I borrowed directly from an Israeli news website less than a month ago...I have been delighted to repeat their own words and reasoning behind it ever since.

I stated before that you should check true history, not slanted history. Attempting to rewrite history only works temporarily.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

7:07 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

then dismiss it entirely

Boy, you sure have your blinders on tight Myst. I state that the Brits were not entirly alturistic and somehow you construe that to being totally dismissive towards Povvy's statement.

If you did happen to study a little history, it was the League of Nations and then the United Nations that gave Britain control of that part of the world. And the idea that the British were the only ones that had a hand in determining the course of events is ludicrous - Jews and Arabs alike played their hand to their best ability.
Of course, you find it to your liking to only blame the US and Britain. I bow to your superior ignorance - truely you know better than I who is responsible for all that is wrong in the world.

12:17 am  
Blogger Myst said...

sean...

History actually acknowledges that plans to create Israel began before 1917 in Britain. I have read some history...it starts with WWI and The Balfour declaration. In fact, the Balfour declaration was seen by many as a betrayal of promises made to the Arab people by Britain itself...a contradiction of agreements made to the Arabs.

In his November, 2002 interview with the New Statesman magazine, the UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict.

"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis—again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.

The "League of Nations" exercise was nothing more than a British plan set into motion.

Britain placed a ban on Jewish immigration to Palestine before WWII ended. The ban prevented a massive influx of Jews to an already tense Arab/Jewish living arrangement. The ban was kept up after the war ended and the Zionist apparently saw fit to assasinate British officials and commit acts of terrorism upon British entities which led to Britian turning over Israel's welfare (mandate) to the U.S. in 1948.

Now...since it is painfully obvious that I do know a bit of history and your comment about my ignorance has been sufficiently blow out of the water, what other excuses do you have for being either a revisionist or credibly inept...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

8:29 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

One more thing, sean...

povvy obviously sees that Britain did things in the past that now haunts all British people and obviously has difficulty with it.The same as any American with a real conscience has over American slaughter of Native Americans or the human slave trade we partook in for centuries.

I am not advocating the idea of special consideration for any group in the present but our histories, U.K. and U.S., give us no right to be judgemental over anyone who disagrees with us when we have made such phenominal mistakes and, in some cases, comitted such heinous acts.

Even if such acts were initiated before our time it should be a strong deterrent against such boundless arrogance and empirical ambitions.

We can not rightfully use the flimsy excuses of freedom and democrasy to define what we are spreading in the Middle East. We can not spread what we do not have ourselves. If we did. Arabic people would not be finding discrimination a growing problem, people would not be held in suspicion because their name sounds like a so called terrorist name, not agreeing with all government policy like a lap dog earns you the title of Un-American and a t-shirt promoting freedom or the right to be heard would not be grounds for detention.

To this day there is not a single shred of real evidence that bin Laden or al Quada had anything to do with 9/11...that comes straight from the FBI. bin Laden isn't wanted in connection with the WTC attacks because there is no real evidence that he was involved. Why is that do you suppose?

America has made mistakes and as long as the arrogance is allowed to play a role in our policies we will make more mistakes.

Maybe you should try a less GOP type of outlook.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

9:00 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

I see, according to BushCos latest round of negative electioneering, that most Americans are now Nazi-appeasers and slavery-supporters. Hehe.... I guess the problem with the GOP now is that they only know one way how to do things and that way is now a liability for them. Of course they could always just steal the election again..... ;)

Sean, any kind of colonialism/imperialism is bad news. End of Story. You can try to argue that benefits are derived by an occupied people, but that is ultimately just arrogance for so many reasons.
Refusal to admit arrogance is a symptom of arrogance.

12:46 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

The silence is almost deafening...is it not?

Now Israel is destroying Gaza and nobody seems willing to stop it.

Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

Many people are being killed by Israeli incursions that occur every day by land and air. A total of 262 people have been killed and 1,200 wounded, of whom 60 had arms or legs amputated, since 25 June, says Dr Juma al-Saqa, the director of the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City which is fast running out of medicine. Of these, 64 were children and 26 women. This bloody conflict in Gaza has so far received only a fraction of the attention given by the international media to the war in Lebanon.


You can find the article here.

Israel has destroyed the power station (just like Lebanon and destroying civilian infrastructure is supposed to be a war crime) and calling people to tell them they are going to bomb their house...using the same psychological warfare of the civilians in Gaza but the Palestinians have no place to go because Israel has sealed Gaza off from the rest of the world.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

1:32 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Proof that there was no planning for a post 'Mission Accomplished' Iraq: -

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_09/009469.php

So Rumsfeld got tired of planners trying to plan for the occupation and reconstruction phase (Phase 4) and threatened to fire anyone who continued to try.

This article brings up a very interesting point which is this; if there was no 'Phase 4' plan, then how could BushCo claim to want to be bringing democracy to Iraq? Surely you have to have a post-invasion plan to democratize a country? The original plan was to cut and run after victory, but all that changed when no WMD were found. That is when 'democracy' suddenly became the reason de jour. All those who questioned the rather flaky and haphazard BushCo approach were labelled 'terrorist sympathisers' and worse by the baying and mindless right-wing scream-machine, when in fact all they were doing was excercising their patriotic duty, minds, and judgement.

IMHO, those who continue to support BushCo blindly despite the mounting stench-filled pile of evidence that all was not kosher with how things have been done are either simple minded, completely ignorant, or deliberately disingenuous.

1:02 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Bush has already stated to the press that "...we will be in Iraq as long as I am president.". He and his cronies are not and never were after democracy.

Now he has made the statement that he WILL privatize Social Security in 2007 if the Republicans remain in control come November, which he believes they will...another planned coup I guess.

Our own government is attempting to terrorize the public by statements such as "Vote as though your life depended on it, because it does." This is a piss poor way to retain control. The American people have started to wake up...it took them long enough...and are not so willing to buy the GOP "fear factor"

I would rather die standing than to live on my knees...especially at the whim of a group of neocons. I was strong before they took control and screwed my country and we all will be much stronger when they are gone. I refuse to live in fear...of bin Laden, al Quada or Dick Cheney.

Lieberman has been propped up by the GOP in the hope that keeping him would give the Republicans no less than a 50-50 tie with Cheney being the tie-breaker so they have dropped any and all Republican candidates in CT.

We can see very clearly where this is going.

If this country is stupid enough to let them continue as is, they will have cast a deciding vote for the further destruction of the very things we have bled and died for.

Respect is not a right, it is a priveledge

6:05 am  
Blogger Myst said...

povvy...if you really want to know what the U.S government or the oil companies are capable of, I would recommend two movies...

Syriana and Lord of War

Both may be fiction but Syriana is based on writings of an ex CIA operative and Lord of War is based on the Iran-Contra affair.

America is not at all what we are taught growing up. I learned this very young but most in the U.S. still believe the fairy tales of what this country is supposed to be.

To quote a line from Syriana...Corruption is why we win.

We have no right to ridicule others because we are as bad, if not worse, than they are.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

9:29 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Myst,

I've seen Lord of War and I enjoyed it. I'll watch Syriana soon.

Just read an interesting article by a man living in Baghdad this morning: -
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-letter20sep20,1,226790.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Makes you wonder what HE would answer if asked that old republican favourite, used to browbeat sinful doubters everywhere; 'Would you rather that Saddam was in charge?!?!'

He might be in imminent danger of death, but he should try to look on the bright side; he can at least go and vote in democratic elections now, giving 10s of republican politicians the opportunity to pose bravely with purple fingers held high.

One has to wonder though, is his vote worth more or less now, in real terms, than it was than under Saddam?

12:53 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Even a handful of U.S. politicians have expounded that Iraq would have been better off it Saddam had been left where he was. It does make you wonder...

What is not being taken to heart is that both of the countries the U.S. invaded, Afghanistan and Iraq, are exceedingly close to collapsing. That is a fact that should make any reasonable person wonder what exactly we have done to benefit either one of them.

The same idiots that led us into the unfounded war in Iraq have been trying to fabricate the same kind of irrational claims against Iran in order for us to attack them. It is not being so blindly accepted this time but the Navy has been put on standby for blockading Iran regardless. Bush has told the Israeli govt. that he WILL take care of Iran before his term expires...I read it in the Jerusalem Post.

It is also odd that on 9/10/01, U.S. counter terrorism officials were party to communications from the 9/11 hijackers yet the communications were not translated until 9/12/01. It very possibly could have been stopped the attack or at least many lives saved. This info was also found in an Isreali publication...an off the wall mention.

Why do the Israelis know more about what the U.S. govt. is doing than the American citizens have a right to know?

I'll give you three guesses and the first two do not count...

The only reason Bush admitted to the secret detentions overseas is because members of the CIA had refused to do any more harsh interrogations after the Supreme Court smacked down the military tribunals and inhumane treatment of detainees. That is why 14 were transfered to Gitmo.

Anyone who bothers to really look at what lies before them can see major problems here...the catch is that they have to want to see it for what it is.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:38 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Looks like BushCo. has gone off the deep end and will not be satisfied until they break the ME as well as the US (along with Iraq and Afghanistan).

Not long ago, Sy Hersh wrote an article detailing BushCo's plans to attack Iran...well, guess what...

Senior intel official: Pentagon moves to second-stage planning for Iran strike option

Another interesting piece of reading is these quotes I just read on Haaretz (Israeli website)...

We ourselves gave up the doctrine that once formed the basis of Israel's security concept, and of our lives: the right to strike preemptively.

Sounds like we found the source of the U.S. agressive "pre-emption" arrangement.

This quote is even more radical if you really think about it...

Unless we repent and mend our ways on this crucial issue - i.e. unless we return publicly, without inhibitions, to the preemptive strike doctrine - the most dangerous place for Jews to live in, and perhaps even to survive in, will be "the safe haven for Jews" - in other words, the State of Israel.

In other words...the hell with any kind of peace. There is a "God given birthright" at hand...harm your neighbors even if you are not sure to be in jeapardy.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

11:45 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Thought I would share...*gag*

If anyone wanted to know how stupid America can be, just look at the numbers...

Poll: Nearly a third of Americans still believe Saddam personally involved in 9/11

Embarrassing is it not? Especially when you consider that very recently the Senate AND Bush, himself, have made public assertions that Saddam had nothing to do with any of it.

Oh...and plan for an orchestrated event in the U.S. in October. Karl Rove has apparently got something else on the burner to either scare, anger or scam the American public...

Rove's planning an October surprise

Anything to keep the Republican's in charge so BushCo doesn't lose their rubber stamp or shield from accountability.

Between stupidity and corruption...not to forget Pat Robertson spewing his own fear factor by stating that a "Holy war" between Islam and Christianity is at hand...America will soon end up so broken that we can not fix it. Fanatics, fools and crooks...our new mantra.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:55 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Did anyone else see the report that states our misadventure in Iraq is FUELING terrorism?

So much for the assertions of Bush that we are doing good by being in Iraq and that we are "winning" his war of...sorry...ON...terrorism.

Gives something legitimate to "cut" does it not?

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:20 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Yup, Bushes house of perfidious hogwash is falling down around his ears at the moment and all he can do when pressed on it is mumble incoherently and repeat his tired nonsense. One only hopes that the ignorant masses have been taking note and vote accordingly.

I think it would be a fantastic idea to have random CCTV cameras monitoring voting machines for days ahead of the elections. From what I've been reading of late by various analysts, whistleblowers etc, the last 2 elections look increasingly as if they were rigged by wholesale manipulation of the data.

Bring democracy to Iraq? I think you guys need to bring democracy to yourselves ;)

On our side of the pond, Blair is looking increasingly like a lame duck. This will he stay or will he go nonsense is doing the country harm and weakening his authority further.

Good luck!

4:51 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

I have been saying for years that the elections have been manipulated but the right wingers and Bush apologists all claim it as "sour grapes"...

Uh-huh...maybe not after all.

I will relish saying I told you so

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

12:48 am  
Blogger Myst said...



I guess we just have to deal with those damn cut and run Iraqis...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:22 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Today is a sad day for America and the West. The US has fallen low. Bushes torture bill has been railroaded through and it looks like he's working hard to pardon himself from breaking the law re. Geneva Conventions before the Dems get in.

Shame on him. Shame on those morally bankrupt people who will vote for him.

I'm absolutely disgusted.

1:34 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinion/28thu1.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

1:41 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Join the club...

Many of us have been disgusted for 6 years.

Now there is yet another whistleblower to the Diebold charges...there have been last minute "patches" made that were unauthorized by the states, uncertified by the states and kept secret from the states. Considering the latest issues over how easy it is to screw with these machines...hack them in favor of one over the other...we all can rest assured that when Diebold told BushCo that they would win the elections...they meant it.

Diebold Added Secret Patch to Georgia E-Voting Systems in 2002, Whistleblowers Say

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

12:43 am  
Blogger Myst said...

By the way...one reason that Americans are facing such a negative future outlook for Social Security is, in fact, the Bush administration.

In order to make the numbers look better to the public this year, they have taken roughly $177 BILLION out of our Social Security surplus. They raid the retirement of millions to finance their spending spree...too bad all of us can not get away with blowing other people's money as they do.

I think they call it Creative Accounting.

WASHINGTON - The U.S. government closes the books on fiscal 2006 Saturday, and politicians are likely to trumpet that the federal deficit came in almost $60 billion below projections. Problem is, they won't be using the same math you use.


The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has projected that the federal deficit for the fiscal year ending Sept. 30 will total around $260 billion, aided by a surge in revenues. That's $58 billion lower than last year's deficit and about $77 billion lower than projections at the beginning of the fiscal year.


Great news? Budget experts in Washington and on Wall Street say it's a welcome development, but misleading. Washington's funny math excludes the Social Security trust fund, which is running a $177 billion surplus this year. Washington spends it, but doesn't count it as spending. It's officially listed as "off-budget" borrowing.


"In practice, all the money Washington collects goes into the same pot and gets spent the same. On paper, we say we'll pay Social Security back later," said Brian Riedl, chief budget analyst for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative research center.


So the deficit is actually about $437 billion, the CBO calculates: the $260 billion official deficit plus the $177 billion borrowed from the trust fund. Since the money is "borrowed," it adds to the gross federal debt, which is expected to reach about $8.5 trillion by Jan. 1.


This is why New York investment bank Goldman Sachs & Co. issued a dour report Sept. 22 titled "The U.S. Budget Outlook: No Lasting Improvement."


Spending trust-fund money to mask the true size of the federal deficit is a longtime Washington gimmick, but even so, Heritage calculates that the Bush administration and the Republican-led Congress have increased government spending by 45 percent since 2001. Heritage uses spending numbers from the White House Office of Management and Budget.


Federal spending increased by 9 percent in fiscal 2006, the biggest jump since 1990. It's risen sharply for education, agriculture and several nondefense programs as well as for the war on terrorism and homeland security.


"It's really been a guns-and-butter spending spree," Riedl said. "Of all the federal spending increases since 2001, defense and homeland security combined are responsible for less than a third."


Heritage calculates that discretionary spending, excluding defense and homeland security, has increased by 7 percent annually during the Bush presidency. That nearly doubles the 4.2 percent annual growth under President Clinton.


Deficit comes in below projections, thanks to `off-budget' borrowing

Respect is not a right, it is a privelegr.

12:57 am  
Blogger Myst said...

I am a bit surprised that we have not heard anyone defending the actions of our Decider-in-Chief.

What...no bombardment of how Ignorant some people are?

Have not heard an off-color remark since I posted the CORRECT information about the beginnings of the State of Israel.

It is also odd that here in the U.S. gasoline prices never drop at all until those who coddle the oil corporations are up for election...after the elections watch it skyrocket again like it did in 2004.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:36 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Foley is about a sick pervert. This makes three (3) high profile Republicans in less than a year that have been brandished for indecent behavior with children...

The other two were high rankers...or should I say wankers...in the Department of HOMELAND SECURITY...those two went to jail.

The majority leader in Congress, Dennis Hastert, even admitted that the Republican leadership knew about Foley's behavior for at least a year before it became public. Like the Catholic Church, they did not want anyone else to hear about it but did nothing about it.

Scooter Libby...GONE AND DISGRACED
Tom Delay...GONE AND DISGRACED
Bob Ney...AS GOOD AS GONE (going to prison)
Mark Foley...GONE AND DISGRACED
Randy Cunningham...PRISON
two from Homeland Security...JAILED PEDIFILES
and at least three more I can think of from the Bush administration who have been arrested for anything from shoplifting to selling Federal land to lobbyists.

That is not a complete list but these incidents are only in the past year...how many more skeletons are going to come out?

Apparently Woodward's latest book is exceedingly telling and ruffling a lot of feathers in the process...can you say BUSTED...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:40 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

It turns out that Hastert, knowing all about Foley's fondness for kiddies yet keeping silent about it, is also a good christian who had previously led an initiative to help 'Keep Kids Safe In Cyberspace'.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/il14_hastert/8_29_06_Internetsafety.html

What a f**king joke. Does the moral depravity of these people know no limits?

Where are the apologists now? Woken up and smelled the coffee yet?

1:02 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

I do not believe it was coffee they were sniffing at...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

12:27 am  
Blogger Myst said...

WASHINGTON — A senior House Republican has asked the House clerk to look into allegations that then-Rep. Mark Foley was turned away from the congressional page dorm on Capitol Hill after arriving there intoxicated one night.

Find the article Clerk asked to look into report of Foley incident at page's dorm


There are also reports that Hastert Was Warned About Foley Two Years Ago, GOP Aide Says

To make it even more pathtic Foley is labeled as a Democrat by Fox and Assosciated Press

So...here we have the Republican leadership of the U.S. Congress hiding the fact that they have a pedifile on board so they can keep their majority and retain power at the expense of Congressional pages but also we have the pro- Bush media attempting to throw it on the minority party to deflect the negative influence it will have next month at the polls.

Severely pathetic...this is who America wants in charge of our nation?

That is frightening...BIG TIME.

Apparently the "out there" Katherine Harris (R-FLA) (you know, the woman who has been rejected by her own party AND Jeb Bush) is spewing the ridiculous notion that the media and Democrats are behind this event because "the Republicans didn't know about it". She said this on camera.

Some may believe the country is safer in Republican hands...unless they have children...

2:14 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Rumours have it that the repugs next lame guilt-dodging gambit will be to claim it was an evil gay-cabal of staffers who were working to cover for Foley. Names will be named!

It's amazing to me how people like Rumsfeld and Hastert do all they can to shift blame for their own failings of leadership so they can maintain their corrupt deathgrip on power. Where the f*ck is the moral highground these a$$holes claim to inhabit?
Talking of moral highground; where is the moral outrage of the 'moral majority'?
Seems to me they condone paedophilia.

1:15 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

I saw a video the Fox newscast which labelled Foley as a Democrat; you have to ask yourself, how low can these scum go? Is that the height of their wit? Is that the best they can come up with? A lame trick some five year old could have devised?
How do they look at themselves in the mirror? How do they keep a straight face when spewing forth righteous moral indignation over issues of the day when they are so clearly morally bankrupt themselves.

1:22 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Welcome to the U.S., where the only important thing to the current party in power is "us".

What "moral majority? Consider the % of priests that the church has protected from legal repercussions...

MORAL? In America, the only morality that is viable is the ones who claim that Democrats can not possibly be Christian. "Republican" no longer represents a political party, it IS a religion and you can do whatever in the hell you feel like...but you won't burn for sins unless you are a liberal or some other form of Democrat.Thank goodness not all Republican's buy into that BS.

I keep trying to tell you...America has grown stupid because of it's arrogance and it WILL crumble if the whole country does not get off their lead asses and help us change our direction.

Many will choke on their false patriotism while true Patriots watch in horror and disgust as those same people cause the implosion of our entire country.

Here in TN. there are already reports of fraudulent voter registrations during a GOP vote drive...just read that in the Tennesean on line...

Bush and Cheney are sure the GOP will retain power...only if they steal it yet again...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

1:58 am  
Blogger Myst said...

BTW...it is becoming very clear that Bush's stupidity in "staying the course" and "AQ thinks America is weak" and if we leave Iraq, they win... is not only opposite of what the National Intelligence Estimate stated (the war in Iraq is CREATING increases in terrorism and violence)...but it also is the very thing AQ wants...for the U.S to continue the occupations...

CAIRO – In appearances across the US, President Bush has been campaigning against withdrawing troops from Iraq, arguing that to leave now would hand a historic victory to Al Qaeda and inspire new generations of jihadists to attack the US.
But a letter that has been translated and released by the US military indicates that Al Qaeda itself sees the continued American presence in Iraq as a boon for the terror network, which has recently shown signs of expanding into the Palestinian territories and North Africa.

"The most important thing is that the jihad continues with steadfastness ... indeed, prolonging the war is in our interest," says the writer, who goes by the name Atiyah. The letter, released last week, was recovered in the rubble of the Iraqi house where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, was killed by a US bomb in June.


This slap to the Bush policy can be found here.

He does seem to believe that if he repeats it often enough, his BS will actually be true...what a steadfast idiot.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

2:44 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Have not heard an off-color remark since I posted the CORRECT information about the beginnings of the State of Israel.

Been busy with my life. I started a couple posts but I was not satisfied enough with their content to post them. Goes to say, I still don't agree with you on Israel.

As for Folly... it's certainly evident that he has impure thoughts, but I haven't heard of anyone accusing him of committing a physical sexual act.
As for what Hastert and others actually knew, I hope it comes out in the wash. Until then it is specualtion on our part.

I've got just one name to say before you get all high and mighty - Gerry Studds.

5:57 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Had a read of the Gerry Studds AND Dan Crane (R-Ill) cases, interesting. It seems appropriate actions were taken at the time from what I read.

What makes the Foley episode interesting is that it shows the dirty clay feet (again) of those claiming to have the moral highground over the rest of us mere mortals.
With all the conflicting stories being hurled desperately about in self-defense by the various parties involved, even stories that conflict with themselves ;) , it sure smells a hell of a lot like coverrups and lying.

But, at the end of the day, all republicans can rest at ease, it was Clintons fault!

While we're on the subject of the anti-christ Clinton, source of all evil; seems he undertook not to aim nuclear weapons at non-nuclear club countries, like DRNK, while he was prez.
Bush came along, called DRNK 'evil' and promptly (and no doubt with a macho swagger) had some nuclear weapons aimed at them. DRNK responded that it would not sit back and let such provocation go unchallenged. And guess what, they didn't. But never fear, it's Clintons fault, he possessed poor innocent Bush and forced him to do and say those things.

1:53 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

It seems appropriate actions were taken at the time from what I read.

Studds turned his back on his fellow congressmen when he was censured and he received a standing ovation from people in his home district. It just seems a bit of democratic double standard to me - especially when there is still no accusation of Folly of actually having sex whereas Studmuffin turned it into a gay pride thing. Don't get me wrong, I think it is highly improper in both cases as these are men in positions of power - something that surely would have influence over the thinking of any congressional page.

it was Clintons fault!

Come on Povvy, I'm not that cynical about Clinton's presidency to ascribe this to him. Or is that just your poor attempt at a segway?

As for your nuclear targeting info... gotta source?

1:11 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

The way I read it, Studds turned to face the speaker which meant turning away from other members but, whatever. How is Studds relevant now? Is it a case of 'a dem did it too so why can't we?'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Page_sex_scandal

You say no proof as yet exists that Foley did do the dirty deed, well after reading some of the smut he produced, my response is - it isn't for lack of trying.

My allusions to Clinton being responsible were aimed at the 'we have been in complete control of the government for 5 years, but all our f**kups are Clintons fault' crowd ;)

As for Bush targetting NK,
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_04/nprapril02.asp

NKs response can be seen in the same article...
"North Korea’s official Korean Central News Agency carried a March 13 statement from a foreign ministry spokesman saying, “Now that nuclear lunatics are in office in the White House, we are compelled to examine all agreements with the U.S.,” an apparent reference to the 1994 Agreed Framework, under which North Korea committed to dismantling its nuclear weapons program."

I would say Bush is squarely in the blame for this one. The only thing Bushco can do now is outright lie about it and hope those who get their news from Fox will believe it.

1:30 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Came across this gem on AmericaBlog which about sums it up: -
"...let's call North Korea what it is: a part of President Bush's Axis of Failure. Since he bizarrely linked North Korea, Iran, and Iraq nearly a half-decade ago, North Korea has almost certainly acquired nuclear capabilities, Iran has become more militant and more powerful, and we've turned Iraq into a terrorist-producing failed state. Axis of Failure."

Ding dong dang!

5:44 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

The way I read it, Studds turned to face the speaker which meant turning away from other members but, whatever. How is Studds relevant now?

It was my understanding that a congressman is supposed to face his fellow congressmen while the speaker reads the why the member is being admonished. I may be wrong as I can find no information on this.
As to how Studds is relevent... I'm just pointing out that both sides are hypocrites when it comes to this subject.

As to the nuclear targeting... I was more interested in information that you might have to show that Clinton did not have North Korea targeted. As far as I know, US nuclear warhead targeting is classified information. Anyways, it doesn't take that much to re-task a missle and North Korea is not an immediate threat that would require it to be targeted for immediate response.

3:24 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

"President Clinton, in a declaration issued April 5, reaffirms that the United States "will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states" that are parties to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT)."
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/docs/940405-nsa.htm

Mutually assured destruction is, to my sensibilties, an acceptable form of defense, however, targeting a weaker country (who HAS signed up to the NPT) with no nukes is an aggressive stance which will illicit one of two outcomes; appeasement or retaliation. We can now see the NKs are not appeasers. How very Republican of them.

As you say, I'm sure nuclear warheads can be retasked at a moments notice, however, the information about who the targets are constitutes a very powerful political tool. And thus are the targets made known to achieve foreign policy ends. In this case, the Bush foreign policy seemed to be, threaten and then ignore (or 'I'll hold my breath until I go blue if you don't gimme what I want').

Iraq, Iran, and now North Korea; Bushes Axis of Failure in our more-dangerous-than-ever world.

4:31 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

targeting a weaker country (who HAS signed up to the NPT) with no nukes is an aggressive stance which will illicit one of two outcomes; appeasement or retaliation. We can now see the NKs are not appeasers.

Yes we have. During Clinton's administration, North Korea was wisely not seeking to build a bomb with the plutonium that was being monitored at their nuclear power plant. Instead they were purchasing information on how to enrich uranium and gas centifuges and centrifuge parts from AQ Khan. I guess that makes them sorta both, an appeaser and a retaliator.

We still don't know if N. Korea or Iran purchased the bomb designs from AQ Khan. What are you willing to bet?

8:12 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Khan is said to have sold much of it to NK...and our ally (Pakistan)...those we threatened to bomb back to the "stone age"...pardoned him. I wonder why they would do such a thing...hmmm.

In 2002, GWB stated to the press that he would contain NK...GREAT JOB!!!

The guy's name is FOLEY, not Folly...even though that might describe his behaviour pretty well. There have been report after report of severely inappropriate behavior...showing up drunk at the Pages' dorm, touching that verges on fondling in session, etc. The whole thing has been known by the Republican leaders for years and there is some documentation to PROVE it...that means they knew and covered it up. WAIT!!! The DEMOCRATS did it! The head of one right wing Christian group has stated to the press that Clinton was evil for sexual behavior with an ADULT other than his wife yet Foley's folly was nothing more than a "practical joke" Yea...mess with a consenting adult and you are evil but use your authority to intimidate, stalk, persue or otherwise prey on a child and it's just "funning around". Uh-huh...

From what I have read, the two previous scandals you mentioned had a very big difference...the Republican ran and hid and the Dem did not. By law, the page involved with the Dem was the age of consent and the guy stood up for himself...he did not break any law in what he did. The Rep, on the other hand was obviously ashamed and trying to hide. He cowered like he had been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The voters saw the stark differences in reaction. It was not that the Dem got a lesser consequence, it was that he did not try to lie and cover it up. He stood up for himself and pointed out that he had not broken the law. His district voted him in again after the scandal. The Rep did not get re-elected...the voters did not like being lied to or having their representative BEHAVING as if he were guilty. That is the difference.

The quote I gave you from Jack Straw concerning the ME is more pertinent than what you might or might not want to believe. The plans for Israel began around the year 1918 with the Balfour Declaration...Britain wanted to appease the Zionist leaders in England to illicit their financial support fot the war efforts. THAT is where the planning for the state of Israel began and promises made to the Arabs were forsaken. This was what started the conflicts between the future state of Isreal and it's neighbors. Double standard policies towards Israel vs. Arab states began with the Balfour declaration. What you CHOOSE to believe is irrelevant, fact is fact.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:34 am  
Blogger Myst said...

I actually had someone try to argue the point this morning that I was not going back far enough in history on the beginnings of the STATE OF ISRAEL...

According to this person THE HOLY BIBLE is the source...

I tried to overlook it but it does go to show that many of these people truly believe that Christianity or Judaism is the law that ALL should go by and has absolutely nothing to do with the facts...it is just because their beliefs say so.

So much for Freedom of Religion in the USA.

Now you see why so many Americans turn away from religion. The history of Christian roots is swamped in those who try to use it for political gain. Stories written with their own spin were gathered to make a book but the books were cherry picked from countless stories. They contradict each other repeatedly and all were written by people who were not yet a twinkle in their daddy's eye when "Jesus" was alive.

My forefathers, relatives and friends have not fought and/or died to defend my country just so one group could force me into their belief system nor for legalized discrimination against same sex marriage or labelling those who dissent as Un-American.

My ex husband was homophobic and it proved him to be extremely stupid just the same as the bigots who try to suppress people of color/ethnic/religious differences.

Those who would argue differently mock the very reason our soldiers shed blood for this country.

We do not seem to stand for much anymore...if I wanted a "STATE RELIGION" I would move to a place like Uzbekistan...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:03 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I wonder why they would do such a thing...hmmm.

Other than the fact that many Pakistanis view AQ Khan as a national hero and it would be political suicide (even though it is a dictatorship, it would foster more assassination attempts at the very least... thus ending Musharraf's political life) to seriously punish AQ Khan.

The guy's name is FOLEY, not Folly

That was intentional. You at the very least should have appreciated the fact that I won't hesitate to call an idiot an idiot.

Studd's ethical behavior - having sex with someone that he could have undue influence over due to his political position - was unbecoming. If you can't see that then you aren't worth your salt. There are allegations that Foley had sex with ex-pages; and while some of his behavior with acting pages is questionable and certainly worth questioning - I don't see where it compare's to Studd's.
As I said to Povvy, I'm waiting to see what comes out in the wash concerning any allegations of coverup. But if there wasn't any actionable issue, how can there be a coverup?

and promises made to the Arabs were forsaken.

Otherwise known as the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence. Hmmm, I think that the Arabs were promised the world in this document. That must be why they feel it should be a one world Islamic state.
Actually, I think the planning for the state of Israel goes back to at least 1897 and the First Zionist Congress.

The history of Christian roots is swamped in those who try to use it for political gain.

I despise all organize religion precisely because there are those who use it to control others. However, you only seem to have a problem with the Christians and the Jews.
Actually, Christianity was probably OK when it was pretty much a grass roots religion and the Romans were still feeding them to the lions. It certainly couldn't have been considered a big political move to become a Chritian at that time.

6:48 am  
Blogger Myst said...

The point I was making about the Balfour declaration was it's intended outcome and why the British were so gung ho to give them what they wanted...they did at that time break their word to the Arab states, giving the future Israel a legitimate place in history. The Zionists could not have created their own state without help and the Brits were in control of that part of the ME at that particular time.

It may have looked a bit better if you had acknowleged the guy's name as Foley but if you look again I acknowleged that that described him pretty well.

Nat'l. hero or not, I can see plenty of reason for Pakistan to not want to follow our exact lead...how would you feel about the "stone age"?

If you check into Christianity's history in depth, you will find that it was indeed used as a political tool by the individuals who referred to themselves as "leaders". It was used not only to gain power and control but also to advance the seperation from Judaism. When Emporor Constantine "converted" he did not relinquish his loyalty to Apollo but saw his conversion as an oppotunity to gain enough power to become Emporor...he needed the backing of the Christian population to gain the throne. Many of the books of the Bible have obvious political tones according to scholars and it was obviously a way for a few to elevate themselves by using the gullible masses. According to history, religion has always been political.

I have had personal involvement with Christianity and Judaism, I do not feel that I have a right to dispute things from any religion I have not had personal dealings with. I know a few Muslums and they have never given me a reason to doubt them but I have little personal understanding of their religion. There are "off the deep end" individuals in EVERY organized religion. Christianity has been responsinle for more death and destuction than any other religion to date.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:54 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

On the subject of religion, I wonder the fact that the Christian Right were cynically manipulated into giving their support to a Bush administration who referred to them internally as 'the nuts' is going down.

Time to pay the piper.

12:23 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

He also made a statement to a Dallas, TX newspaper a few years ago that all Jews are going to hell...

When it boils down to it, he's as much, if not more, of an anti-Semite than Mel Gibson.

Anyone who is not just like him is unworthy...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:37 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

I see that there is speculation as to whether Iraq is moving into 'failed state' territory. Makes you wonder wtf the whole war was all about. Bush's list of achievements: -

Mah Achievements:-
#1 Failed the American people during the worst national disaster in US history
#2 Failed to find the murderer of around 3000 innocents
#3 artificially, and at great cost, induced a sovereign nation to become a failed state
#4 induced NK to become a nuclear state
#5 removed habeas corpus from the judical system
#6 gutted the constitution
#6.5 (made myself king in all but name)
#7 made the US a state that practices torture
#8 stole 2 elections
#9 Created an Islamic Crescent of extremism in the ME
#10 Encouraged the destruction of Lebanon, a country whose democracy I was celebrating and claiming responsibility for only a year or so before
.....
ah hell, there's too many to mention...

Heckuva job!!

5:13 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

they did at that time break their word to the Arab states

The Hussein-McMahon Correspondence during World War I was a 1915-1916 exchange of letters between the Hejazi (the Hejaz later became part of Saudi Arabia) leader Hussein ibn Ali, Sharif of Mecca, and Sir Henry McMahon, British High Commissioner in Egypt, concerning the future political status of the Arab lands of the Middle East, where the United Kingdom was seeking to bring about an armed revolt against the Ottoman Empire's rule. ...

McMahon's promises are seen by Arab nationalists as a pledge of immediate Arab independence. ...

Land that "cannot be said to be purely Arab" was excluded from the agreement. Hussein, and very many Arab people, considered Palestine to be "purely Arab". The British saw Palestine differently as the Turks, while they had been masters over Palestine, had allowed other religious groups to exist in Jerusalem – hence their belief that Palestine "cannot be said to be purely Arab".


It seems to me that this was a discussion of possible disposition of lands rather than a formal declaration of intent. Arabs took it to be a declaration of intent because that is what they wanted to believe it was.
As I said, there are those Arabs that expect a world wide Islamic state. Should we give it to them just because this is what they expect?

The Zionists could not have created their own state without help

Zionists courted and were courted by disparate forces. The Zionists did not need the British for the will to procede with their plans. It is not all that clear to me that they would not have succeeded without British help.

12:57 am  
Blogger Myst said...

You are beating a dead horse. Britain had control over the ME at the time, that is the only way the Zionist could have entered the ME at that time with the intent of creating their own state.

Any other country that had control of the ME at that time would have replced Britain in the episode...but it was Britain at that time.

If UK politicians acknowlege their role in the event AND the FACT that they have contributed to the conflict with Israel in the present day, what the hell are you trying to argue the case for? It's a dead horse and no matter how you might want to re-write history, it can not be done.

I would be more inclined to take Jack Straw's views on the situation more seriously than yours as would any reasonable person. He is a Brit politician who grew up learning UK history and went on to get involved with politics which would give him more access and clarity on events that his country had been party to.

Repeatedly trying to insert your views by desperately trying to give your own hypothesis will not change anything...move on.

povvy...Cheney has admitted to the press that Americans have been "waterboarding" people and even calls it a "no-brainer"...

Makes us look a bit tarnished, does it not...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:48 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

You are beating a dead horse.

You shouldn't speak of yourself in such terms.

If UK politicians acknowledge their role in the event AND the FACT that they have contributed to the conflict with Israel in the present day, what the hell are you trying to argue the case for? It's a dead horse and no matter how you might want to re-write history, it can not be done.

Come on! Really! It's more out of the current idiotic liberal sense of political correctness that the idea that British and American involvement in the Middle East is the source of all the problems there. Re-write history, how about the liberal penchant just to totally ignore the Arab people's involvement in all the problems of the Middle East. Mind you, I do not deny that British and American involvement has caused problems. I'm just of the view that throughout history that interaction between differing cultures/peoples tends to cause clashes of ideas/wills. This is nothing new to the human condition. What is new is that western culture is striving to respect other cultures, even if there is no reciprocal effort. What is stupid is the liberal notion that we have to show respect no matter what others do and that we should prostrate ourselves for every perceived infraction that our forbearers committed.

Getting back to the point though. I have no doubt that both America and Britain have both contributed to Israeli dominance over their Arab neighbors. We did pick sides. Ask yourself why we picked sides. Before you tax your brain I'll tell you why we picked sides - it's because the Jewish people are more like ourselves in our culture and history.

As for the history, in the Arab-Israeli conflict all I'm saying is that the Arabs and the Israelis are the prime protagonists in that issue. For all of your contention that the British were in control, there is ample evidence to the contrary. If the British held such control, then why did they leave? The British had about as much control then as we do now in Iraq. The simple fact is that the Zionists did create and maintain a situation that drew Jewish people to that part of the world - they were the prime instrument in creating the state of Israel. The other fact is that certain Arab peoples are responsible for maintaining animosity toward others. (There's plenty of others that fit the animosity part besides some Arabs - it's just unfortunate that a number of Arab individuals of this mentality are in control and perpetuate this animosity.)

3:01 am  
Blogger Myst said...

The Brits gave up the mandate over Israel because the Zionists...extreme end...began doing things like assasinating Brit diplomats and such...

It did not begin that we sided with Israel because of cultural similarities...it began with the desire to have the Zionist finances to fall back on...another fact youu like to ignore. That financial carrot was the most persuasive reason to create the state of Israel.

So much alike in culture, etc.? Is that why Israeli planes were allowed to attack a US Navel vessel, kill more than 30 of the crew, wound more than 100 and then have it swept under the rug so there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY?

They spy on us...been caught doing so.

They sell our technology to countries that we do not want it going to...with their knowledge of our perspective.

The list goes on...

Yes it is a dead horse. I call it what it is, not what I wish it to be. You can get off the "liberal" bandwagon again...your conservative heroes have put this entire country in peril, not to mention other countries, and now our debt that "conservatives" have built for us is going to take a heavy toll on the US if something is not done about it.

Conservative? That is the biggest joke runnin right now. Insignuating that I am one of your liberal whipping posts is almost as funny...I am not the liberal you want to label me as.

I am also not about to go "partisan" on line and show everyone how desperatly I want to be right like some do on a regular basis. either.

Try 1-800-555-WAAH...you'd have more luck finding a sympathetic ear.

While you are dialing the phone, you may want to remember that those who YOU helped to elect have almost 100 more US servicemen and women who have died so far in the month of Octobe, 2006...not counting the thousands of Iraqi civilians...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

7:46 am  
Blogger Myst said...

The attempted theft of the 2006 election is already underway in Florida...

Glitches in early voting

People who have voted for the Democrats running have found their vote being cast for the Republican instead...

Makes it kind of obvious why the Republicans in control did not want to make sure we would not have e-voting problems, doesn't it?

You have to wonder why Rove and Bush are so confident that the Republicans will keep control...in truth, you really have no reason to wonder.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:24 pm  
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5:26 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

1-800-555-WAAH .... ROTLMAO!!! Very funny ;)

1 more week. Sean, are you going to sit it out? Or are you going to be one of the dirty thirty %? Or have you seen the light ? 8=P

Or are these questions too personal??

hehe

1:26 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Bush says the economy is in great shape but the head of the GAO says that unless we do something quickly the whole country is heading for a severe financial disaster because of the MASSIVE DEBT CAUSED BY THE UNBRIDLED SPENDING OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND THE REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED GOVERNMENT.

Conservative...not with other people's money...

With that plainly stated, those who vote for "as is" will be hearing about it when we crash. They will also be told to call the whining line when they start feeling the pinch of losing financial ground.

When the well off have to live like the poor do, I will be the one LMAO...Bush's ideals of the rich getting richer and the elitists that go along with it will find out soon that, just like poor people, when a GOVERNMENT borrows too much and racks up too much debt it will eventually be foreclosed on.

I'm sitting in the bleachers waiting for the show...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:51 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

My fellow citizens... err... ignorant, self-indulgent Americans.

The sociologists have an simpler time of it. As Americans flock back to their old buying habits, it is all too easy to lump excessive fuel consumption in with other bad habits involving overindulgence: over eating, over spending and over television watching.

The supply of oil is not limitless but apparently the current generation of Americans is all too willing to exhaust it by buying more vehicle than they need and letting their children and grandchildren fend for themselves.


Careful Myst, it's not too much of a stretch to see voters behaving the same way.

3:35 am  
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12:28 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Looks like they found the Weapons of Ass Destruction! Haggard and Foley were hiding them on their persons all along ;P

5:15 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Richard Perle, known as the archetect of the Iraq invasion and supreme NeoCon, has jumped the Bush ship and now refers to him as INCOMPETENT...oh how time flies when you look like an idiot.

Pastor Haggard has officially been fired for his misconduct with a gay escort and buying METH from him. This guy spoke to Dubya once a week as counsel for a long time...guess it's easy to see what kind of people weild power and that they are the one's Bush LISTENS TO.

Sean...for the past almost 6 years, the US has been told that the economy is getting better while the majority of us struggle to get by. The only people I know buying gas guzzlers are Bush lovers while everyone else I know has to cut back on things, even groceries, in order to afford gas to get to work and back.

Do not be arrogant enough to lump all Americans in on your little tirade. Most of the people I know have to borrow from Peter to pay Paul, so to speak because there is not such a thing as a "living wage" anymore.

Just so you know...I do not put money in the pockets of oil corporation CEOs by purchasing gasoline. I live two miles away from my job and walk more than 90% of the time...2 miles to work and two miles back. Other than the occasional ride with an aquiantence headed in the same direction I walk in heat, cold, rain, snow or whatever else Mother Nature throws at me. I do not buy on credit...if I do not have the money to buy something, I do not buy it whether it is a necessity or not.

Most people in the US could not get by on what I do and very few account for serious purchases of anything considered a luxury nowadays.

You are the one who should be careful. I see where this country has gone and where we are headed...

One has to wonder whether you do...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

12:51 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

The only people I know buying gas guzzlers are Bush lovers

Well, that's the difference between your part of the country and mine I guess. There are a lot of rich liberals here that like the big SUVs. Me, I get by with my little Honda Civic and a 5 mile commute.

Do not be arrogant enough to lump all Americans in on your little tirade.

I don't think you can classify what I said as a tirade. Also, I wasn't the one doing the lumping, the buying statistics speak for themselves. I did speculate that that may not speak well for your hopes of getting republicans out of Congress if people tend to resort to their old habits.

3:54 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

You are the one who should be careful. I see where this country has gone and where we are headed...

One has to wonder whether you do...


If you haven't caught my drift by this time...

I think that there is less to be concerned about with where this country is headed and more to be concerned about with where the world is headed. Don't get me wrong, I do think that America should consume way less than we do. I just think that a good part of the rest of the world is picking up our bad habits, making it a mad dash for resources in the future. Somewhere along the way we will all have to learn to manage our resources.

4:03 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Yes...the big difference between you and I, gender not withstanding, is that I see more of America's actual population than you do. Yes...both liberals AND conservatives have SUVs and other things that are a severe waste but it is also a fact that the middle class is disappearing quickly and there are more poor people in this country than there are even moderately comfortable.

I see it every day all around me. I would be willing to bet that you would have to look to find it.

It is a good thing to be concerned where the World is headed...

To be "not so concerned" with where America is headed is not smart.

If, as you say, the rest of the World seems to be picking up "our bad habits"...don't you think that we need to, at the very least, set a better example?

If the direction of the US keeps going in the direction it is going does that not worry you in the slightest that this once great nation will implode? You should...if your country, as a whole, means anything to you at all, you should.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

6:28 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

To be "not so concerned"

The phrase I used was "less concerned", which doesn't mean that I am not highly concerned with where this country is headed. I've been highly concerned with where this country is headed for quite some time. The reason I used the phrase "less concerned" is that we have political processes the make it able for us to change given the right impetus. Not only that, we are the most open society and most willing to change society in the world. Your problem is that you are only concerned with the direction of the country as it relates to Bush and corporations.

don't you think that we need to, at the very least, set a better example?

We have... by learning to polute less and trying to protect the environment, by including peoples from all over the world into our society, by spreading knowledge and the ideal that all men are created equal. It is not so simple though as providing a shining image for the rest of the world. People by and large though have to realize for themselves that different behaviors/"ways of living" are in their own best interest and that others are detrimental.

does that not worry you in the slightest that this once great nation will implode?

When we stop being competitive our society certainly will go into decline. If you haven't seen, it's already happening. The question is, do we re-task ourselves toward facing our problems and overcoming them or do we try to mandate a better standing of living?

9:33 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Bloody hell, I can't believe the sh*t the GOP are getting up to to try and intimidate/misinform/harass voters they think might go against them. Unbelievable, they are not a politcal party, they are organised criminals.

Listen to this dumbass, Laura Ingraham, inciting people to jam voter help lines, surely a criminal activity.....

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/ingraham.mp3

10:51 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

sean...if you think this country is open, honest and equal for all (or even most) then you should make an appointment with a proctologist to find your head...

Ask Muslums if they are treated equally...or Latinos, people of color, women, poor and non Christian too for that matter.

Cheney predicted the Republicans would retain control of the House They have lost at least 18 seats so far)...he should keep his day job even tho he is not very adept with it.

Senate is close right now...I'm watching...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:00 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Republicans have lost 25 seats in Congress...*grin*

Only 2 races up for grabs in the Senate and Democrats are ahead in both so the minority has a damn good chance of ending Bush's "rubber stamp" priveleges...*bigger grin*

Still watchin...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

7:27 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Republicans lost 27 House seats...

Isn't that special...

2 Senate seats still up in the air with Democrats leading both.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:52 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Looks good... just to think, if the repugs had not been so hateful, divisive, and criminal, they would not have had their asses handed to them on a plate.

One has to wonder if they'll chillout and learn to get along or keep being hateful SOB's.

Some commentators are making the point that there should be impeachments, not out of revenge, but to stop the crooks from returning like they did after the Iran contra affair. Clinton forgave them and they returned as neocons to create the Iraq mess.

4:25 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

sean...if you think this country is open, honest and equal for all (or even most) then you should make an appointment with a proctologist to find your head...

Ask Muslums if they are treated equally...or Latinos, people of color, women, poor and non Christian too for that matter.


Again, the phrase I used was "we are the most open society", which is not equivalent to a totally open society. I'm quite well aware that inequities exist even in our society. However, if you had your way, the Shia in Iraq would still be suffering social inequities under the rule of Saddam. The inequities within our own country seem to far outweigh the inequities in other parts of the world. You have permenent blinders affixed to your head.

I am encouraged that both Nancy Pelosi and George Bush seemed congenial in their respective speaches this morning. Too bad you seem to have a permenantly warped pespective Myst. This perverse desire to twist what others say to push your own point is what I dislike about the extreme of both sides.

9:21 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

However, if you had your way, the Shia in Iraq would still be suffering social inequities under the rule of Saddam.

I have seen inequities that would make your skin crawl. I have not been a citizen subjected to a dictator as Saddam was...that WE installed in the first place...yet I wear scars from torture. I have been shot, stabbed, shocked (electricity), had fingernails pulled out for the pleasure of a sadist and other things you could not even dream of. America...land of the free, right? Sure...

Be cautious who you use the Repug tactics of throwing Saddam at someone...they may have more understanding of what torture is like than you ever will. Bush was trying to belittle Democrats by asking what they would do to win in Iraq...they would do better than he has because if you ask what he HAS done to win in Iraq, the answer is NOT A DAMN THING.

We have killed/been responsible for more innocent Iraqi deaths since we invaded a soveriegn country (Iraq) than Saddam was responsible for in 20 years. Throwing Saddam out as such puts you in the "idiot seat" in the real world. Our 3 to his 20...hmmm...

How in the hell do you figure this would be my way? Who died and left you in charge of dictating the thoughts and opinions of others? You insinuate that other people are extreme when you are called on what your posts appear as, personally attack others when you do not agree with their views (typical Repug tactic) and insist that your views on other people are gospel...extreme? You are as much as you are not.

Understand something sean...WE can not help the Iraqis build a democracy if WE are not allowed to have a true democracy at home.

WE can not put an end to the atrocities perpetrated on the Iraqi people until WE 1)stop abusing our own and 2) stop abusing them.

WE can not lift their country up if those in charge at home are tearing ours down.

WE have no hope of truly doing for them when WE are being stripped of what we have fought for over a handful of power hungry politicians whos only interest is lining their own pockets and those of their cronies.

I am not extreme. I see what lies before me and nothing more. If your comments suggest that you are not as concerned as you should be, you deserve to be called on it. If you are concerned, you should try not to sound so obtuse.

I am relieved about the House takeover for ONE reason only...there will now be at least some accountability. There is no more rubber stamp for George Bush. People have stated today that NOTHING is going to change...it already has changed...the incompetence of Rumsfeld is on the way OUT the door.

I hope Bush can own up to the Olive Branch he has extended but I do not believe he will. I hope Pelosi will try to work with those more centered but am not sure.

Most of all, I hope this is the beginning to stopping the deterioration of the U.S.

That is the best I can hope for.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

1:49 am  
Blogger Myst said...

On the same day President Bush promised a new bipartisan Washington, he began efforts to get two of his most controversial decisions approved before the Democrats take over Congress.

Bush on Thursday submitted the nomination of John Bolton as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, and said he would like to move forward on legislation to authorize the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program.


Before his lunch date with Pelosi, Bush lined up his Cabinet for a photo op and spoke to reporters about a new era of bipartisanship.

"We'll discuss the way forward for our country, and I'm going to tell them what I just told our Cabinet. It is our responsibility to put the elections behind us and work together on the great issues facing America," Bush said.

"The American people expect us to rise above partisan differences, and my administration will do its part."


14 minutes after seeing Pelosi, Bush sent his nomination for John Bolten back to the Senate.

Then he sent in his request for approval of Domestic Surveillance...

Bipartisan...sure and the WMD is under the table...

So much for Bush's empty promises...

Considering how many Republicans are angry that Bush did not get rid of "Rummy" BEFORE Tuesday, I do not think he has a shot in hell of getting much cooperation from the soon to be minority.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:28 am  
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11:20 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

How in the hell do you figure this would be my way?

You've stated it plainly before that you feel it was wrong for us to go into Iraq. Again, you've misinterpreted how I've stated things. By 'your way' I was stating that you would not have had us go into Iraq. Thus, while I'm sure you're not in approval of the brutal regieme that was Saddam's, your ideals would have left Saddam in power and the Iraqi Shia continuing to suffer.

We have killed/been responsible for more innocent Iraqi deaths since we invaded a soveriegn country

I do think you are wrong on this point. Even if you agree to the worst esitmate (if you can call it that) of 650,000, the Iran-Iraq war dead estimates range up to 1.5 million. This does not include the dead in Iraq due to Saddam's own repression. Also, your measure holds America responsible for deaths due to insurgent actions and sectarian violence.

I see what lies before me and nothing more.

I knew I was right about those blinders on your head. Thanks for the confirmation.

11:52 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

You really do enjoy trying to personally insult other people, don't you.

You have defended the Bush administration over lies and manipulations...

You have defended the invasion of Iraq...BTW, if we had not invaded there would be no insurgency...so yes, we are responsible for the deaths due to the insurgency. To take the stance that the Shias were the only ones to suffer is questionable but at least the Iraqis had electricity, water, fuel and most basic necessities. Since the US invaded, electricity is a crap shoot, WE have actually cut water OFF to many civilians as we waged battles (which is a war crime, to deprive civilians of basic necessities), we have denied them much more than Saddam and we have denied it to just about everyone except the elite...where corruption extends far beyond where it did under Saddam by the US chosen government.

You defend Israel's brutality as self defense when the are responsible for mass killings...the French Peace Keepers came very close to firing on Israeli justs just the other day for unwarrented war game to which they did strafing runs over the French in Southern Lebanon, essentially violating the cease fire agreement again for the umpteenth time.

I see these things, you choose to overlook them.

It is not I who is wearing the blinders and you make it painfully obvious...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:08 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

You really do enjoy trying to personally insult other people, don't you.

I really don't try to insult anyone, it's just that you are so ignorant.

BTW, if we had not invaded there would be no insurgency...

That is a fact I'm quite well aware of, and it was a known probablility even before we went in.

To take the stance that the Shias were the only ones to suffer

I've never taken that stance. Have I never said that the Kurds suffered tremendously under Saddam. Is it not widely known that even those closest to him were in danger of being take out by Saddam if he thought they might try to overthrow him. The whole country suffered from his repression. I just singled out the Shia in that instance because they are the majority in Iraq, yet they held no power to speak of.
Again, your ignorance leads you to make idiotic statements.

As for the state of Iraq's infrastructure, it would be a lot better off if certain Iraqis were not sabatoging it and scaring off anyone from working to make things better.
As for your contentions that it was all that good to begin with... many Iraqis have no idea what a water treatment plant or a sewage treatment plant is. I have read one instance where the people of a town had to be convinced to use the water from a newly installed water treatment plant.

we have denied them much more than Saddam

BS. Just go back to the UN Food for Oil program. Saddam did not buy medical supplies for the people. People had just enough rations so that they would not be inspired to start a revoulution. Your statements are made in total ignorance.

6:57 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

This old argument of 'Saddam was so evil so it's better we took him out' only really means anything to people like us.
I don't believe it means anything to most Iraqis as things are now worse for them than the 'good old days' under Saddam when there was law and order, education, jobs, infrastructure, womens rights, and the best health system in the region.
I also don't believe the argument makes any difference to those in power except where it can provide another disposable fig leaf to mollify people like us for their poorly conceived and executed wars.
The people in power don't care about the Iraqis. Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam and trying to improve relations a year AFTER the crime for which Saddam has now been sentenced to death. The Iraqi population was routinely shot and tortured by US troops. Why weren't the rules of engagement refined by the generals to prevent such things? To prevent the loss of hearts and minds before it became too late?

Yes, now there are factional insurgencies who are killing scores of Iraqi's on a daily basis, yet the claim of 'it's the insurgents and terrorists fault' doesn't hold water as it was our leaders who chose to throw the rock into a room full of primed mousetraps. They were the ones whose actions unleashed the chaos many, even Bushes father, knew would ensue.

2:02 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I don't believe it means anything to most Iraqis

Hmmm, I guess you believe all of reverence shown to Saddam before his fall was out of genuine love, and that all of the revile shown toward him after his fall... oop, my bad, there are no Iraqis reviling him.

as things are now worse for them than the 'good old days' under Saddam when there was law and order, education, jobs, infrastructure, womens rights, and the best health system in the region.

Certainly there was a time when the secular reign of Saddam brought these things to the Iraqi people. Deterioration began during the Iran-Iraq war, increased during the 1991 Gulf war, and got atrocious under the UN sanctions. Saddam had the means to supply his people under the UN sanctions, he chose not to.

The people in power don't care about the Iraqis.

I believe that is largely true of any government toward it's people. America's one saving grace is that our system lets us have the opportunity to kick out the bums once in awhile when we get sick enough of the current lot. I can only hope that the Iraqi people are able to institute a similar government.

Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam and trying to improve relations a year AFTER the crime for which Saddam has now been sentenced to death.

Do you have a similar disposition for Madeleine Albright toasting glasses with Kim Jong Il. Certainly there is no doubt that he has committed humanitarian crimes against his own people.

The Iraqi population was routinely shot and tortured by US troops. Why weren't the rules of engagement refined by the generals to prevent such things? To prevent the loss of hearts and minds before it became too late?

There are laws against such things, as there are laws in our own countries that people break routinely. The expectation of a sanitary war is unrealistic. Also, there is a large number of Iraqis that have been indoctrinated in one way or another that there could be no expectation of ever "winning their hearts and minds". An ideal war ... well, there never has been an ideal war (unless you were Atilla the Hun).

7:39 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Do you have a similar disposition for Madeleine Albright toasting glasses with Kim Jong Il.

The latest world wide poll made it very clear that most of the ENTIRE WORLD sees GWB more of a threat than everyone else with the ecxeption of Osama bin Laden.

"You really do enjoy trying to personally insult other people, don't you.

I really don't try to insult anyone, it's just that you are so ignorant."


You just proved my point without doubt.

Still attempting to justify a war by choice in which three years later the Iraqis are in more desperate conditions than they ever were under Saddam shows you as pathetic. The only Iraqis that really want us there are the one's profiting from us...otherwise most of them want us gone and have for quite some time.

The rhetoric that if we leave, more heinous outcomes will emerge is not for you or Bush to dictate. The hawks tried those excuses to prevent us from exiting Vietnam too but none of the doomsday predictions happened then either.

Arrogant and self rightous corners are the only ones showing stupidity enough to believe and desperately cling to the idea that we have done better for the Iraqis than Saddam...

The fact is that we have done them more harm than good by a long shot...

Your feeble attempts to rewrite actual facts is not going to wash here or anywhere else other than a crowd of sheeple.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:35 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

BTW...here's a look at what waterboarding is...



The guy is right...

It's not about who they are but who we are, as Americans.

Respect is not a right. it is a privelege.

1:28 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

The latest world wide poll made it very clear that most of the ENTIRE WORLD sees GWB more of a threat than everyone else with the ecxeption of Osama bin Laden.

1)That is evading the question (that I posed to Povvy). This is your favorite tactic when you cannot provide a direct answer to the question.

2)The rest of the world should have concern for GWB, he does command the most powerful military in the world. OBL is more of a rogue force though. With a WDM in his hands he would be vastly more uncompromising than GWB.

more desperate conditions than they ever were under Saddam shows you as pathetic.

I see living under constant repression as an unacceptable situation, while you feel Bush is an interminable situation. What is pathetic is that you feel it is acceptable for people to live thier entire lives under a cruel dictatorship.

The only Iraqis that really want us there are the one's profiting from us...otherwise most of them want us gone and have for quite some time.

Now who's talking rhetoric. You are just dismissing the whole Kurdish population as well as a percentage of the Shia and Sunni populations.

but none of the doomsday predictions happened then either.

I take it that you see the boat people fleeing the Vietnamese communist regime as a sign of what... that the communist state was caring and nurturing toward it's citizens?

Arrogant and self rightous corners are the only ones showing stupidity enough to believe and desperately cling to the idea that we have done better for the Iraqis than Saddam...

The fact is that we have done them more harm than good by a long shot...


I have not denied that in the present situation the Iraqis are having to deal with fear, uncertainty, difficulties, and lot of pain. You on the other hand act like there is no hope for the Iraqis to have a better life than the one they faced under Saddam. Who is the one living in denial.

3:51 am  
Blogger Myst said...

According to the WORLD, GWB is the second biggest threat, surpassed only by OBL. N. Korea's idiot in charge is less feared as a terrorist than Dubya.

No...trying to make the world submit by threat of force does not help our objectives...it hinders them.

The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is considered to be the most dangerous "rogue" state...

We make Iran, Syria and everybody else, except Israel, look nice.

You can keep up the flimsy arrogant rhetoric...and the insult...all you want but the FACTS are still not going to change.

We invaded a soveriegn country for less than stellar reasons and nowhere near the helping the Iraqis bullsh*t that you still try to pass off.

America under Dubya and Cheney has royally screwed the pooch for the past several years and we have multiplied the hardships for the Iraqis, not to forget been responsible for hundreds of thousands of them to end life prematurely, as well as gotten our own killed in the process.

Your America is self-rightous stupidity has everyone within earshot wearing hip-boots and jumping up on tables just to wade thru it or get out of it completely.

In case you did not notice, you are one of the outgoing minority. The Senate and Congress are no longer in the hands of the Rubber Stamp Republicans who give us the same tired BS that you spout here.

You know why?

The Repugs underestimated the American public even with the dirty tricks and rigging.

The Dems did not really win the election as much as GOP stupidity gave it away.

Last but not least, most of the U.S.A. believes that we have done the Iraqis more harm than good.

You are part of a minority still desperately clinging to the fantasy belief that our country can do no wrong.

Like the parent who swears their child would not ever do something like that!

The Iraqis will never have a chance at a better life until we step completely out of the picture and someone else steps in (UN, Nato, etc). We have brought nothing but dispair, hardship and more terror than the Iraqis have ever seen...for the sake of control of their oil.

Deny it all you want but there are facts that support it and if you even try to tell us that the Iraqi people are more important to the USA than their oil is, you may witness the first person on the planet actually LAUGHING themselves to death...

You really should try to get over yourself...

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

6:36 am  
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10:04 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Myst, I have not heard one suggestion on how you would deal with these repressive governments. By what you have said, it is favorable to leave people living in repressive societies, except if it happens to be the one you are living under - then you see repressive policy at every turn.

Nice to know that you favor other people living under repressive governments.

2:42 am  
Blogger Myst said...

Get a grip, Boyo...

The underpriveleged citizens of AMERICA have to deal with repression all the time. If our country is not capable of making our own citizens equally treated, we sure as hell can not do it for anyone else.

When I was very small, the local law enforcement would show up out of the blue, drag my dad into the front yard and beat him badly enough to put him in the hospital...I saw it several times. My father kept to himself and did not go out much...in other words there was not a reason. If someone commits some type of crime they are usually put in a car and hauled to the police station.

Being beat senseless in the front yard in front of your small children and left there is NOT an indication that my father did anything wrong.

OJ Simpson just got paid around 3 1/2 million dollars to write a book on how hw would have killed his ex and her friend, basically writing a confession. He got off because he had the financial backing to hire the best bullshit artist he could find and was aquitted of murder. He could now stand in front of a camera and tell the whole world that he murdered his wife and could not be tried again for it.

You want to tell me about people who are repressed?

You ARE incredibly predictable. I just won a $10 bet because I told someone that this would be your weak ass attempt at an argument...to attack me, personally, because you actually HAVE NO ARGUMENT and the best you can do is attempt to impune me personally.

You are a sad, pathetic little man...

Thank you for being so predictable...you just bought me lunch!

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

3:17 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

"Myst, I have not heard one suggestion on how you would deal with these repressive governments."

My answer to this one; Don't deal with them, don't sponsor them, don't install them. This is exactly what the US has NOT been doing for decades. Unfortunately when one of those dear dictators comes to bite you in the ass, all the moralising in the world means nothing because it is so clearly hypocritical. I agree with you, no one should have to live under repressive regimes, so STOP SPONSORING THEM.

Unfortunately with Iraq, an opportunity was squandered to help the Iraqis and now their lot is worse. I've seen a fair few documentaries about modern day Iraq, and believe me, the people are suffering badly. One particular incident stands out in my mind; one of the few doctors who remain was being followed by a cameraman for the day. A 10 year old boy was brought into the hospital at gunpoint. The adult, wearing a military uniform, holding a gun to the boys head, said 'fix him'. The doctor diagnosed severe diarrhoea from contaminated drinking water. After sending them on their way, the doctor said something like 'I can't ask why a 10 year old boy is being held at gunpoint by an adult or I would probably get shot. The best thing you can do in these cases is do as you're told and shut up'. That doctor has to live with threats to his life daily as well as the danger of being kidnapped because he is perceived as 'rich'. Most other doctors have fled Iraq.

All of this because of George Bushes invasion of Iraq. Post-war planning was blocked by several high level admin people. Why? Were they just being stupid? Sometimes you have to wonder if such perplexing stupidity isn't perhaps masking something more deliberate…

1:11 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

It appears that I am not the only person to see that sponsoring dictatorships for any reason just to collapse them when they are no longer useful is no excuse for the "moralistic" attacks made on those who remember who was responsible...

sean...are you taking notes?

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:20 pm  
Blogger Myst said...

Another example for sean, even though it does not include some of the repressive behavior for those who could never get to college.

I'm still searching for something equitable in the U.S. for those who are not white and well off...

U.S. Universities Becoming Richer And Whiter

Between 1995 and 2003, it says, flagships and other public research universities decreased grant aid by 13% for students from families with an annual income of $20,000 or less, while increasing by 406% aid to students from families who make more than $100,000. Typically, grant aid for upper-income students is awarded based on merit to attract high-performing students.

One obvious problem here is that many individuals place themselves above others who are less fortunate so they believe all those who have less are unworthy. It is sad to know that in this country you are guilty until proven innocent unlesss you have financial backing, you can get away with murder if you are well off, those put in charge of your children have the power to abuse them and not be held accountable, it matters not how hard a person struggles to rise about a negative situation they were born into because most of this society enjoys keeping those individuals between a rock and a hard place without even considering they are worthy...yeah this country has no business taking the moral high ground, considering CIA Black Sites, "dunks in the water" that Cheney approves of, renditions, legal kidnapping, torture, designations that strip a person of all humanity and rights in order to throw them away and forget there was ever a key (enemy combatant)...

The Bush regime has stripped us of ANY right to claim a moral high ground...

...not that we has a great deal to work with before he got to DC.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:42 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Myst, if you think that asking you how you'd deal with repressive governments is a personal attack rather than an attempt to get you to dialog on an issue then you can win bets all day long.

Povvy, the question still stands, how do you deal with repressive governments? Are you content that there are people suffering under Kim Jong Il? There are plenty of repressive governments that western countries did not install. And even if past administrations did have a hand in bringing governments into power, is just leaving them to continue their existance a good policy. Short of war are there thing that should be done or not done in order to help bring about their end. For example, is supporting the North Korean government by providing food aid a good policy? Perhaps if the North Korean military started experiencing the starvation that the citizens experience they might decide to put an end to Kim Jong Il's reign.

2:44 am  
Blogger Myst said...

OK sean...

You keep up the sad, pathetic little argument as if you can impune my perspective on what I think should be done...it does not and will never make your argument legitimate.

The Repugs tried that last minute crap to try and shift Iraq complaints before the election by posing the question; "What would the Democrats do in Iraq?" I ask, other than nothing, "WHAT WOULD THE REPUBLICANS DO IN IRAQ?"

It matters not what I would do and the USA IS NOT responsible to be the planets moral justice system or policeman.

The threat of use of force is never a decent way to deal with doctrines we do not like, especially if we have little clue of the culture. I'm not sure how aware you are but most everyone knows N. Korea was more of a threat to our allies and us than Iraq was...explain that one if you are so concerned about repressive regimes and global threats to peace.

Iraq was not a threat until a handful of neocons gathered in a room to manufacture a threat. N. Korea was a threat but now are even more so.

The biggest threat to peace in the world at this time is the Bush regime. Other countries feel they have to arm themselves against aggression from the USA.

We give nuclear technology to whom we deem beneficial at the moment but deny others the right to have it for peaceful purposes, trying to claim they are after weapons when we have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF just like Iraq.

We support Israel in all they do...murder, kidnapping, genocide theft of land, etc. ...but condemn others that do anything similar...

You want to know what I think should be done about repressive, fascist regimes???

Don't trade with them, don't bargain with them, do not support them at all...change oil currency to the Euro...that will stop a great deal of the double standard policies...

Unless you want to include the USA as one of those repressive regimes, you have no argument. We are as bad as many and probably worse than a few.

What would you do, Boyo? If you have an answer...a legitimate answer...it should include the US because we are the ones responsible for the repression of the Iraqis and Afghanis for over three years now, not to mention targeting those of Arab descent and mass injustices to many foriegn born.

Do you honestly buy the idiotic idea that we can ascimilate the world by force? If the answer is anything other than NO you need serious help.

If the Iraqis do not want us there and we are not helping their situation but instead hindering them, what makes you think we should keep shoving US moralistic BS down their throat?

They do not want our "help" because we have made their lives more repressed and less secure than life was before the invasion.

Anyone who says differently is either making a profit from the Iraq invasion/occupation, has not a real clue of life in Iraq or is selling something (most likely does not smell of roses).

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

5:59 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I'm not sure how aware you are but most everyone knows N. Korea was more of a threat to our allies and us than Iraq was...

Under sanctions, Iraq was certainly less of a threat. If sanctions had been removed with Saddam still in power there was a large threat to the stability of the world's energy supply. Kim Jong Il is certainly more dependent on receiving foreign aid to keep him in power than Saddam would have been with full access to Iraq's oil revenues.

...change oil currency to the Euro...

Very stupid if you are at all concerned with the economic vitality of the United States. This would be a disasterous move for the pocket books of the poor and the middle class in this country.

Do you honestly buy the idiotic idea that we can ascimilate the world by force?

I've never advocated that we should assimilate the world by force, merely to thwart other's attempts at domination. Germany and Japan have prospered quite nicely after being democratized and both countries are certainly not dominated by America.

If this were a perfect world there would be no weapons and no one seeking to oppress others. This is not a perfect world though that can be run in an idealist fashion. Ideals are certainly something to be worked towards, but if you ignore the reality of the situation then you are destined to have a rude awakening (if you manage to avoid sudden death).

That said, the truth of the matter in Iraq is that it is perfectly normal for the Iraqi's to want to feel like the are in control of their own country and are not subject to American military might. There are those in Iraq and neighboring countries that would try to seize power if the American military were to suddenly be removed from the equation though. The Iraqi people would be thrown from one difficult situation into a probably even worse one.

Myst, you'd like it if the world would change. You'd like it if everyone worked in peace and harmony and no one ever suffered. You'd like to think that somehow this ideal world will come about peacefully by just being nice to everybody else no matter what the circumstances and by treating everybody fairly. It would problably be so if we were all ideal humans - I'm sure that you are well aware that we are not all ideal humans though. You are long on ideals but short on practical ideas on how to deal with difficult realities in this world.

2:08 am  
Blogger Myst said...

No it is not a bad idea to change the currency of oil to Euro and I will give you one very good reason why...

U.S. arrogance has put us into a very unacceptable position. Whether you have bothered to notice or not, the middle class has been quickly disappearing, the poor get poorer and the wealthy get richer. Most of us know what it means to have it hard. If we lost the almighty power to dominate whether by force or oil control (currency) many of those who had to join in the suffering would be those who have been behind the messes we have found ourselves in.

We DO attempt to dominate other countries by way of the "our way or the highway" idealism. If not, we would not attempt to influence or insert U.S. friendly advocates in countries we wish to have follow our way of doing things. We would not insist on our people having immunity when they commit agregious violations of the law in other lands, we would not be supplying and aiding opposition groups to stage takeovers of democratically elected governments, we would not back tyrants and dictators EVER (which we have done on too many occasions to count) and we would not have ever allowed an aggressive "pre-emption" policy to ever be approved.

Japan and Germany did NOT succeed because of the U.S. and you need to get over it. I lived in Japan a few years and saw remnants of what we did...much of it was helpful only AFTER unnecessary use of force that murdered hundreds of thousands of people...and the land is still scarred AND radioactive in some spots today. There was no great need for the first bomb because Japan was on the verge of throwing in the towel but there was absolutely no justifiable reason for the second bomb other than to prove we could murder in mass amounts.

A good friend of mine is a teacher in Germany...born and raised there. Through her I have learned much more of Germany's history and we did not do a great deal to make them what they are today either.

You mention two other countries we have occupied as if we are responsible for making them great places...wrong FDR allowed U.S. citizens to be murdered to bring us into the war...Pearl Harbor was not without warning and thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, the documentation has been established that proves the U.S. government knew of the attack and when it would take place. They sat on their ass no less than Bush with the "pet Goat" book while Americans were slaughtered.

We DESTROYED much of Germany and Japan so we were obligated to rebuild the country...structures that we destroyed. The Japanese people are responsible for making Japan something to be proud of, the Germans did it in Germany.

We did not do more than rebuild what we destroyed structurally and demand immunity and key permanent bases.

Don't start with the America the hero bullshit...it smells of something other than roses.

Iraq will NOT benefit by having us occupy it and the forces running amock slaughtering innocents are anti insurgent groups that we started in the first place. We can not even slow down the violence, it will only escalate as long as we stay because hatred for the U.S. grows with ever murder and every rape.

We have not helped the Iraqis near as much as we have hurt them and it is past time we start redeployment procedures for a phased withdrawel out of Iraq.

The Cold War did not end because the U.S. had the upper hand. The winner of the Cold War was time. The Russians could not afford to keep spending like they were and the nation fell. We are now the ones biting off more than we can chew and our downfall is just around the bend.

America has not been the HERO of much of anything for decades...except those who profit from the mass deception and wars started by idiots who never had the courage to serve their country but find it easy to spill the blood of others.

It appears that the only way America will learn is to have America fall and I can see it coming. I do not wish for it but asinine ideologies will make it happen.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

6:44 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

While I would agree with you that, from an ideological standpoint, it is better to intervene and help a people under a murderous, oppressive regime, I would disagree that the US is qualified to do so in any way, shape, or form at this point in history. This has been amply proved. Why the US is not qualified, in my personal opinion, has a lot to do with the direction your society has been moving in recent decades. But that is just my opinion and is most likely flawed.
One could argue that it has worked for the US to do so on previous occasions, but the fact is, it most often has not worked and in fact has ended up costing the rescued more than it is worth.
The US might think that democracy is worth spilling a lot of other peoples blood for, but as it turns out, a lot of those people aren't ready for democracy and don't see the sacrifice you think they should pay as worth it.

So ultimately, I don't think it is worth it.

5:09 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I would disagree that the US is qualified to do so in any way, shape, or form

Then whom would you say is qualified?

Why the US is not qualified has a lot to do with the direction your society has been moving in recent decades.

Please elucidate.

it most often has not worked and in fact has ended up costing the rescued more than it is worth.

Are you sure this is not more in reference to autocracies that we have supported rather than democracies we have supported?

a lot of those people aren't ready for democracy

I can certainly agree with you on this point in general. I do think that there was a base of educated people in Iraq that could serve to support a democracy. Whether there are still enough educated Iraqis in Iraq or whether they have fled the country is another question.

11:02 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

No it is not a bad idea to change the currency of oil to Euro and I will give you one very good reason why...
If we lost the almighty power to dominate whether by force or oil control (currency) many of those who had to join in the suffering would be those who have been behind the messes we have found ourselves in.


That is highly doubtful. More likely the divide between rich and poor would become even more pronounced here in America.

Japan and Germany did NOT succeed because of the U.S.

When did I say that they did?

The Japanese people are responsible for making Japan something to be proud of, the Germans did it in Germany.

Precisely my point Myst. A basic democracy was put in place and given ample time to develop. What they made of it is their own.

11:17 pm  
Blogger bootsie said...

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8:49 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

"Then whom would you say is qualified?"

At this point in time, probably no one. The EU is too divided and the US is to vicious. Personally, I fancy the UKs approach, however, we are too weak.

"Why the US is not qualified has a lot to do with the direction your society has been moving in recent decades"

I said this because I believe a large part of the US economy has come to depend on the feeding of a large and expensive war machine. The old 'military industrial complex' argument. Unfortunately it too often means that it's more tempting to reach for a gun than try to solve your problems by other means. This 'if I have a gun, then what I say goes' mentality assumes that the target will roll over and submit so that you can get on with being their saviours and bringing them democracy. In practice, massive collateral damage feeds resentment which leads to an insurgency which leads to a quagmire. War should, in actual reality, be the last resort.

"Whether there are still enough educated Iraqis in Iraq or whether they have fled the country is another question"
I agree, estimates put exiles at 1.5 million. A good many of those would be educated because those with more money stand a better chance of making a life elsewhere.

5:30 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

You have to laugh at Bush and Blair and the right wingers; still hanging onto 'we will stand down as they stand up'. It makes me think of a man standing next to a burning forest saying 'Yes, the building of the log cabin is coming on just fine thanks, we should be able to move in any day now'.

Things are getting worse everyday and yet these fools act as if democracy is about to break out like the new dawn tomorrow.

Iraq is a disaster because of our policies and actions and there is nothing we can do, short of sending a million man army, to make it better. If we stay it's a mess, if we go it's a mess. Well done George!

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Blogger Myst said...

democracies we have supported?


Funny you should attempt to use this tidbit to make your point...

America only supports a democracy that is friendly to America thinking and it does not care for any democracy that votes for anyone we do not approve of.

There are shining examples of this fact so it would be useless to try to argue it.

We comitted gemocide on the American Indians and Mexicans to a certain degree. We are now doing so to the Iraqis because of our invasion, anti insurgent brigades we set up (now militias) and the deprivation of basic necessities.

The Empire is damned and the U.S. is not in any kind of position to take the moral high road OR to use democracy and liberation as excuses for invasions or interference of the governments of other countries.

In case you have not noticed, those in the U.S. who claim the moral high ground the loudest are most often the ones that turn out to be the most immoral by U.S. standards.

I asked you before and never received a plausible answer...What gives the U.S. the right and/or authority to invade another soveriegn country?

What gives us the right and/or authority to punish the legitimate populous voted democracy of another country instead of supporting it? What gives the U.S. the right and/or authority to look the other way when one government commits genocide but condemn the victims of it when they fight back? What gives the U.S. the right and/or authority to forsake it's own murdered citizens for another country who willfully takes American lives and the investigations are stopped before ever really getting started? Why could Saddam not invade and occupy Kuwait but we can do it to Iraq?

You have had no reasonable answers to any of these...will you ever?

If the U.S. crumbles, the well-to-do won't be able to cope in the long run. Those without have been surviving for years without and they will make it. If the U.S. crumbles, maybe the humility will become real and the arrogance will die.

Like the bully who publicly gets his backside kicked by the scrawny boy...or better yet, a girl...humility can only be learned at times with complete humiliation and it looks like that is exactly what the U.S. needs.

Once again a reminder...the Soviet Union crumbled, not because of what the U.S. did but because they spent themselves into a hole they could not climb out of. They could not afford what they had chosen to spend on...much like what the U.S. is doing right now...and when the smoke cleared they had to start all over leaving only one so called Superpower.

The last Superpower has not learned much from the mistakes of the past...theirs or our own...and the day will come when we will have to face the consequences...whether you like it or not.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

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Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

America only supports a democracy that is friendly to America

And you suggest that we support democracies that are not friendly to us, like maybe Venezuela? Actually, France can be pretty unfriendly, but I believe that we'd still come to their defence.

What gives the U.S. the right and/or authority to invade another soveriegn country?

I have already answered this, but somehow you keep denying the answer - maybe because it challenges your version of reality.

Once again, Saddam gave up a large amount of his soverign power when he surrendered in order to end the 1991 Gulf War. He failed to honour the concessions he made in order to attain the cease fire.

If the U.S. crumbles, the well-to-do won't be able to cope in the long run.

Maybe not Britney Spears and the gangsta rappers, but come on, do you think those with real money will have a problem. They might buy a few less yachts and jets but they will manage (or actually their money mangers will manage) just fine.

Those without have been surviving for years without and they will make it.

Yeah right. Tell me how they will survive when they cannot afford to heat thier homes and they freeze to death. Tell me how many children and elderly will become malnourished because transportation costs increase the price of food. You are really dumb if you think the poor will manage as well in the diminished America that you envision.

the Soviet Union crumbled, not because of what the U.S. did but because they spent themselves into a hole they could not climb out of.

They did this trying to keep up militarily to the US. Also, they did not have the economic base to provide the revenue.

The current federal deficit and debt are ludicrous and do not make me happy in the least. America can probably recover from the current situation though given time and a congress that is more fiscally responsible. It would help if we didn't keep electing congressmen and senators who had a penchant for earmarks in the budget.

It would also help if companies like GM were making more technologically advanced cars than the Japanese at a better price than the Japanese - a lot Americans don't know what it is to be competetive and economically productive. A lot of Americans are arrogant in the belief that they are guaranteed the good life without putting in the hard work necessary to pay for it.

The last Superpower has not learned much from the mistakes of the past...

Somehow you seem to miss the fact that we have managed to become the last Superpower, or was it just dumb luck that that happened? Although I don't think that title is as real as people think it is. As Iraq has shown, the actual dollar cost of using that power does limit us from inserting forces into every country with a problem. I doubt we'll ever put forces into countries Sudan or Somalia again without an some overriding economic interest. Also, I don't think you can really discount the EU, China, and Russia - they are potent forces to say the least.

...and the day will come when we will have to face the consequences...whether you like it or not.

I'm quite cognizant of the fact that nothing lasts forever (again, as I have stated before). But whether America is going to see the great fall that you envision any time soon is dubious.

10:02 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

If we stay it's a mess, if we go it's a mess.

That was the probable circumstance in any case. We knew it in 1991. Even with Saddam in charge it was a mess. What matters in most people minds right now is that somehow we own it and it is like a sharp stick in the eye. What most people would like is if we just kept letting Saddam own it - then we wouldn't have that sharp stick in the eye feeling and we could look the other way.

Let's just ignore the fact that this Sunni-Shia rivalry has been going on for centuries and we just happened to be the ones to pull the plug on the bottle that Saddam had in place. We have been a reason for much agitation in the region - some deserved and some manufactured by others to serve their own interests. What is really needed for the region is civilizing forces. Whether the politics of the middle east will allow that is another question.

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it depresses me that tactics like these scum use actuaally pay off enough for them to keep at it.

anyway, happy holidays/christmas!!

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And a pleasant season's greetings to you too Povvy. : )))))

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Blogger Myst said...

If we can not show any respect for the democratically elected governments of another country...who the PEOPLE choose to represent them...what makes you think that the votes of the citizens of the USA make any difference?

We can not say that we fight for democracy if we can not respect a democracy elsewhere.

We do not have to be bosom buddies but respect at the very least is warrented

You have to love how some of the U.S. soldiers in Iraq get their kicks...by teaching kids phrases like FU*K IRAQ...video.

As if there were not enough shameful deeds done to the Iraqis...

I wish us all a safe and warm holiday season.

Respect is not a right, it is a privelege.

4:56 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

We do not have to be bosom buddies but respect at the very least is warrented

Not necessarily. Please tell me why either Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez deserves respect, especially after the speaches they gave at the UN.

1:20 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

Unfortunately its a chicken and egg thing. We all know that the words politicians utter are almost always calculated to boost their approval rating amongst one target demographic or another. A politician who keeps saying things that don't appeal to the massses will soon be history. Israel and the US have unfortunately given plenty of people reason to take umbrage and Chavez and Ahmadinejad are happily tapping into those sentiments to boost themselves (normally while screwing their populations in same other way). You guys have made yourselves an easy target by your actions.

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Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Pov,
Clearly Chavez and Ahmadinejad are playing to an anti-American crowd - I have no difficulty with that fact. Myst has some odd belief that we should respect the democratically elected governments of these countries. I'm simply pointing out that this is a rather blind notion of her's.

BTW, have you seen the troubles Ahmadinejad has been encountering at home? First students at Tehran Univ. calling him a dictator and then the failure of his people to win at the polls in recent elections.

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Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Povy,
Still checking in once and awhile?

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Anonymous povvy said...

Haven't had a look for a few weeks, but here I am!

How's life in Silicon Valley?

4:07 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

It's been great. I've been devoting my weekends to snowboarding. I started snowboarding last year and I've managed to become a fairly good snowboarder this year. This weekend I'm going to a place that has a lot of the terrain park features (rails, tables, jumps, pipes, etc.) and I think I will start learning how to do tricks.

How's things on your side of the pond?

I'm glad they added the verification feature to stop the bots.
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12:45 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Indeed, those pesky bots were getting to be a pain in the A.

On this side of the pond and talking of sports, I'm looking forward to the weather getting warmer as it'll allow me to get back onto my Hobie Cat (small sports catamaran) and go for a blast on the water after work and on the weekends.

Talking of snowboarding, about 6 years ago I was given a free week trip to Val d’Isère (French ski resort in the Alps). Also included, free instruction. So me and the instructor go to the top and he shows me how to strap in, then he says 'now hop' (to turn and face downhill). WTF, I twist my ankle! 30 seconds on a snowboard and it's over! Have done a few indoor sessions, but never been back to the mountains.

2:47 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

I know Hobies well enough. We owned a Sunfish when I was a kid. It's been awhile since I've been sailing. I'm thinking more toward taking up kayaking this summer. Living at the south end of the San Francisco bay, I have a perfect area to paddle around right at my doorstep.
I'm also looking forward to mountain biking and backpacking. I'm determined to ascend Half Dome in Yosemite this summer.

As for the spambots... I did think sink sink socks had some more intelligent remarks than Myst's. ;)

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Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Oh, I've been to Val d'Isere. Absolutely loved it there. Hope to return some day and also try Chamonix also. Best pizza I have ever had was on the same trip as VdI in Cervinia, Italy. Snow was terrible in Cervinia at that time though.

Sorry to hear your snowboarding got nipped in the bud. Perhaps you're better off as it can tend to be an expensive proposition. It sure is an enjoyable pastime though.

7:17 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

A Sunfish! hehe... those are funny boats. A friend of mine, an old guy who's a meteorologist loves the damn things. Won't come on a Hobie with me, would rather sail his sun fish all day long.

I love my mountain biking too, just bought myself a new Scott. Didn't go all out and go for the back suspension as well. Don't see the point unless you're going to spend a lot more to get quality. In the mid range it seems to be a trade off between quality suspension or quality kit sets.

I'll get back into my snowboarding one day. I used to be a skate kiddy so always wanted to get into it. The few times I have been on a snowboard though, I found myself wanting to lean back on a turn, skateboard style, rather than forwards. Ouch.

Yup, you can't beat Italy for pizzas. Had an Italian girlfriend once, used to love visiting her and stuffing my face in the local eateries. I don't miss her, I miss the food ;)

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10:10 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Povvy,
What do you think of our speaker of the house?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/05/pelosi.trip.ap/index.html

12:25 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

I think she’s doing well so far. That mid east visit was good from the point of view that it paves the way for future dialog and therefore progress. The Bush admins strategy of not entering into discussions with countries like Syria until various preconditions had been met has clearly failed. In a world where US influence and power is decreasing, playing the ignoring game doesn’t work anymore, because there are other powers that a country like Syria can buddy up to instead.
The belligerence is going to have to be dialled down a little if the US wants to stay in the game long term.

Kudos to her too on calling out Saud on the lack of women in politics. The US went on about women’s rights in Afghanistan as a reason for deposing the Taleban, so surely those same moral values need to be applied even-handedly elsewhere.
Bush failed to apply the same values equally and so is consequently perceived as a hypocrite. As a consequence of that, the US lost any kind of moral authority. It’s time that the US’ moral authority and leadership was restored. That’s what I would like to see.

What’s your opinion?

5:22 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Well, I'm not like a lot of Americans that say the President is the only one that has the right to conduct foreign affairs. That said, I think Pelosi did a couple major faux pas - she is not our Secretary of State or a member of our State Department. As such, she has no part in carrying out diplomatic affairs like what she did between Israel and Syria. She is a member of Congress. She can conduct fact finding missions to gather information and vote on bills in Congress that pertain to foreign affairs. Her power lies as a member of Congress, not in a executive or diplomatic role.
As for Saudi women in Saudi politics, I'm sure, at best, the Saudi King found it amusing that Pelosi thought she could stick her nose in domestic Saudi affairs. I'm sure that many in Saudi society saw it as an affront. While I think that Saudi society is repressive towards women, I don't think what Nancy did was in any way helpful to make a change.

Personally, I think Pelosi does what she does more out of a sense of self import than of moral conviction. It would be nice if I was wrong, but I don't think I am.

The Bush admins strategy of not entering into discussions with countries like Syria until various preconditions had been met has clearly failed. In a world where US influence and power is decreasing, playing the ignoring game doesn’t work anymore,

Don't you think that Lybia refutes this premise of yours?

12:39 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Whether or not Pelosi has an 'official' remit to conduct diplomatic affairs, I cannot argue about as I'm not familiar enough with the way your system works. But I can tell you one thing, it can only do US foreign relations good when people see that there is a more pallatable and representative alternative to the belligerent and warmongering Bush and Co.
"I'm sure that many in Saudi society saw it as an affront"
Many who are keen on keeping the status quo where a woman has less rights than men for example? Should one be afraid of affronting such individuals? Pelosi's actions might not have made any change, but then changes like these are almost always wraught by the myriad minute actions of the many, some of which may have seemed fruitless and misguided at the time.

Show me a politician who doesn't do things out of a sense of self importance and I'll show you a liar ;)

Actually, I think you'll find that it was a result of years of diplomacy, not ignoring, that led Gaddafi to making his declaration.

1:43 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Serendipitous article...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/25/muslim.sextalk/index.html

I think this better speaks how muslim women become empowered rather than having some American politician open her mouth.

2:53 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

hehe... I'm not sure whether that article says more about you or your argument ;)
(kidding!)

But, going back to a point I made a long time ago, it's better that our way of life be desired rather than reviled. As long as we're not alienating people by bombing them, rather, by living our lives, promoting progressive social principles, and engaging in constructive diplomacy, we're seducing them into wanting to live like us.
That's the most powerful weapon we have.

9:09 am  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Hmmm, I lost a post there somewhere....

it can only do US foreign relations good when people see that there is a more pallatable...

Actually, I think you'll find that it was a result of years of diplomacy...


So you're telling me that it all should have been taken care of by Bill Clinton. We all know that he was seen as a more palatable and diplomatic president. I'm having trouble coming up with the advances he made with the Israeli/Palestinian situation and getting Saddam's regime to cooperate with the international community - perhaps you could enlighten me.

I think Pelosi was stupid when she opened her mouth to criticize the lack of women in Saudi politics. The way to empower muslim women is to promote their ability to run businesses. Saudi Arabia is in dire need of people to run and grow their economy. All Pelosi did is make some in Saudi society more recalcitrant in their views towards women becoming independent.

3:40 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

"So you're telling me that it all should have been taken care of by Bill Clinton."
Errr.... no, I'm not. But if I adopt your 'logic' I could conversely say 'So it should have all been taken care of by Bush Senior and those before him.
As for Clinton and the Israeli/Palestinian situation, he might not have made much progress, but at least he tried. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the number of tries Bush has made to progress this issue? (apart from learning how to find them on a map).

Perhaps you could also enlighten me on the progress made by Bush on Zimbabwe? Oh sorry, they don't have oil so who gives a toss about them. Or even the progress he made on Iraq? Perhaps if you redefined progress as regression, that would work!

So are you saying you would have supported Pelosi if she had said 'why are there so few women in the Saudi business arena?'. My guess is not.

"All Pelosi did is make some in Saudi society more recalcitrant in their views towards women becoming independent." In your humble opinion maybe. But you can't please all the sexists all the time eh?

1:45 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

So are you saying you would have supported Pelosi if she had said 'why are there so few women in the Saudi business arena?'. My guess is not.

No, because just saying something like that to the ruling Saud class is likely to have little impact. Perhaps if she kept her opinions to herself while in KSA, gathered some pertainent information, and then acted in a meaningful way where her power means something...

Perhaps you could also enlighten me on the progress made by Bush on Zimbabwe?

He can't fix everything. How about his work on trying to stop the crisis in Darfur. Do you just want to ignore that?

But if I adopt your 'logic' I could conversely say 'So it should have all been taken care of by Bush Senior and those before him.

My logic is that indeed the previous administrations have negotiated plenty. The carrot has been held out to no avail...

4:13 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

I see Rice has visited Syria for talks a few weeks after Pelosi. What a strange coincidence!
Just to think, until now they were a country vilified as being a part of the Axis of Evil and therefore worthy of being 'punished' by being ignored by the Bush admin.

Perhaps Pelosi should have kept her opinions to herself ;)

Sean, everyday I read about the underhanded, criminal, and sometimes just plain stupid tactics embraced by Replublicans to fight a political war based on anything but rational debate ( an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xowSnZkOhX0). Do you honestly support this sort of thing?

1:04 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Rice met the Syrian Foreign Minister while attending the conference on Iraq in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.
_______________________
Repeatedly, the Bush administration has said it would not meet with nations, like Syria, it says sponsors terror. But meet they did today. ABC's Jim Sciutto reports from Sharm el Sheik, Egypt.

[begin video clip]

SCIUTTO: Of the 60 countries represented here, it was a meeting between just two of them, the U.S. and Syria, that marked the biggest change. In an interview with ABC News, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called the meeting important.

[begin video clip]

SCIUTTO: You, yourself, said in January of this year that direct negotiations, in your words, would put us in the role of supplicant. Why now?

RICE: It's not a bad chance to remind the Syrians of their obligations, to talk about -- talk to them about the need to stop the flow of those foreign fighters, the biggest source, probably, of suicide bombers.
________________________

Hmmm, seems to me that we are just re-iterating our position that Syria must actively stop foreign fighters from entering Iraq from Syria.
_________________________
After the meeting with Rice, Moualem made brief comments to reporters, calling the talks constructive and transparent.

"We discussed two issues," Moualem said, "Iraq, security and stability in Iraq, and how to tackle our bilateral relations."

In the clearest signal yet that Syria is interested in repairing relations with the United States, Moualem raised the issue of the return of America's ambassador to his country.

Margaret Scobie was ordered back to Washington following an explosion in Beirut that killed former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and more than 20 others. U.N. investigators have implicated Syrian officials in that blast, something Damascus denies.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said that Rice made clear that future bilateral relations would depend on concrete signs that Syria was actively engaged in pacifying Iraq.
_________________________

Oh, excuse me, we also stated that bilateral relations depended on the Syrians showing that they are working to combat terrorism. Where do you see a change in policy?

Hmmm, seems to me that they don't like the US politically isolating them.

5:26 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

I say it could have been Pelosi influencing the situation, you say it wasn't and nothings changed. One things for certain, talking is better than not talking, whatever the catalyst. BushCo's approach of stubborness and intransigence isn't really the way forward IMHO and has demonstrably proved deconstructive to American interests. You only have to look the sad state of affairs re. nuclear proliferation.


On this side of the pond, you have to wonder if Gordon Brown will be ringing in the changes. Most speculate that his options are fairly limited when it comes to Iraq but what I'm waiting to see is if he will be as much a poodle as Blair was to American interests. It may be a moot point however, in the long term, if the next US president is a dem. But short term, it should be interesting.

4:32 pm  
Anonymous povvy said...

Interesting new report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6663935.stm)

"Iraq faces the distinct possibility of collapse and fragmentation, UK foreign policy think tank Chatham House says.

Its report says the Iraqi government is now largely powerless and irrelevant in many parts of the country.

It warns there is not one war but many local civil wars, and urges a major change in US and British strategy, such as consulting Iraq's neighbours more. "

Is this report a terrorist-loving-liberal plot? One thing's for sure, if there's any grain of truth to it, the fact that Iraq's practically a failed state will be seen as everyone else’s fault except their own by those who started this mess and those who continually voted for it.

3:39 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

That has always been one of the probable difficulties. Much of Iraq is very tribal in culture. Each tribe is very much an entity unto itself and there is the very real competition between tribes for territory and resources. This is why I've felt that the idea that we should pull out in short order is wrong - it is going to take a long time to establish a sense of equilibrium in Iraq.

5:50 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

Your sentiments to 'establish a sense of equilibrium in Iraq' are admirable. However, IMHO, the horse has bolted, too late to close the stable door. US forces are now clearly part of the problem and not part of the solution. What is? who knows? The problem has become an Gordian knot with no solution.

Walk away, and you lose face cos you made a mess of the country and then left them in it. Stay and it only gets worse (well, there's no track record of improvements are there?).

Perhaps the best solution is to split the country. That way, the only ones who are truly unhappy are the Sunnis. A split might go a long way toward pacifying the Shia who in turn might then help, once they are self-sufficient, pacify the Sunnis. Except then you run the danger of another ME state occupying it's neighbour, e.g. Syria/Lebanon, Israel/Palestine.

2:51 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley said...

However, IMHO, the horse has bolted, too late to close the stable door.

The idea that peace could have been established early on if we had just done it right (enough troops or whatever) I think is an idiotic one. These people were bound to revert to their tribal/religious affiliations first in any case. The idea of compromise is not something that has been well practiced in middle eastern culture. We will see if they can adapt to democratic processes or if they will just flat out refuse to change their way of doing politics. But letting all out civil war erupt is a guarenteed way to the latter. What you see as failure is what I see as the first steps in a long and difficult road.

7:09 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Yup, now that the situation is a complete dogs breakfast, blame the Iraqi's, their culture, social structures, political history etc. In choosing to invade Iraq based on a pack of lies, the architects, and the voters for, the war bear no responsibility whatsoever for forecasting, based even the most rudimentary knowledge, this outcome. They bear no responsibility, whatsoever, for the complete orgy of destruction and death which has ensued as a result of them deciding to wage war.
Before the war, I personally warned, as did many others, in other online debates of the possibility of the fracturing of Iraq, a notional construct to begin with, along tribal lines. Of a violent disintegration into factional sparring for dominance over power and resources. It was blindingly obvious. You can’t tell me the professional wargamers in the Pentagon didn’t see the same thing and suggest strategies for avoiding such an outcome. What’s pretty obvious is that the bunch of ivy-league, silver spoon idiots in power, with no experience of war other than dodging drafts, decided to ignore every shred of advice given to them and turn the whole event into one big ego driven fiasco that has taken what was once a functioning country and driven it into the ground, into a failed state. A state where the government is completely impotent and irrelevant, even when it is being propped up by thousands of American troops. Yes, a huge percentage of Iraqi’s risked life and limb to go out and vote. And how has Bush and Co. paid them back? By allowing their country to slide into complete anarchy because they ignored every bit of advice given by those with something useful to say, before and since the election. Those people voted with hope, because they believed it when they were told it would make a difference. You say it’s a long process (not something Cheney said at the beginning, what was it? 6 weeks?). How long is this process? How much further does Iraq have to disintegrate? Tell me, will they all be living in caves and shacks, eating stray dogs, and dressed in rags by the time your long and painful process, which YOU have decided they should endure for YOUR principles, comes to and end?
How much hope do you think the Iraqi’s have now? You went there trying to sell them democracy, do you really think they’re still interested in buying it?
Things have gotten so bad Iraqi’s say they would rather have Saddam back and that US troops are a legitimate target.
/end rant

1:42 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley said...

what was once a functioning country

A nice fiction you like to maintain. Without it your whole line of rhetoric pales.

the possibility of the fracturing of Iraq... along tribal lines.

As was clearly evident to me also. Should that be reason enough to say it is not worth removing a sadistic dictator?

and suggest strategies for avoiding such an outcome.

Please tell me what strategies other than something bordering on genocide do you think could have prevented the power play that has ensued?

which YOU have decided they should endure

So sue me for believing that they should not have been left to endure the rule of Saddam any more. Tell me, what solution can you come up with for the situation in Sudan that does not involve military intervention?

7:01 pm  
Anonymous Sean - Silicon Valley, CA said...

Povvy,
R U in Rostock?

9:18 am  
Anonymous povvy said...

Sean,

G'day! No, I'm not in Rostock ;) What a freakin bizarre question. Why do you ask?

I see Bush has now come out and openly talked about maintaining a US military presence in Iraq for decades to come in the 'Korea Model'. This at the same time a blueprint for the new $500 million 'embassy' in Baghdad and 4 permanent military bases comes to light.
And now suddenly it now all snaps into focus!
The PNAC document called for just such an outcome, 'the United
States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a
substantial American force
presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'
(http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf p26)

Hmmmm... so Bush has succeeded in the PNAC goal. Using a whole lot of BS 'reasons' to cynically provoke a war so that 'the need for a substantial American force
presence in the Gulf' can be satisfied.

All our to and fro arguments about the war are as naught because we were merely being distracted from the real strategic goal outlined above. WMD? HAHAHA! Terrorism? Democracy? What a f***ing joke! We are both mugs!

Heckuva job George!

5:10 pm  

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